Team List Preseason 2025 Trial 2 - Warriors vs Storm

[wizard of Tauranga]

Can you edit the post and rephrase this question "You don’t rebuild years in what way?"

Edited

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Can you edit the post and rephrase this question "You don’t rebuild years in what way?"

In business if you say start a new department, you forgo profit in the here and know to build something great later.

I’m fact the more you want profit ‘early’ the more it stifles growth and potential.

Many established companies go stale because innovation is hard (think Nokia, xerox, united video as extreme examples).

Just playing devils advocate and exploring reasoning. I also believe it’s about getting the balance right.

 

[Wrighty]

You don’t believe in rebuild years in what way?

- You would rather finish 9th than 13th?
- You should make the youth earn their place?
- you should play safest options first with known quantity over ‘risk’ with young people?
- You should forgo future development for the here and now because every season counts?

Do you have the same philosophy in business or just elite sport?

1) You would rather finish 9th than 13th?
Absolutely - recruits are more likely to come to a 9th placed team than a 13th placed team. Also a team on track for 13th can become dispirited and their lips can drop from all the losses and it can spiral into the wooden spoon or 15th or 16th.
Lastly as a fan I celebrate each win so would enjoy a 9th placed finish much more than a 13th placed and so would the players and sponsors.
2) You should make the youth earn their place?
You posted a fantastic table that showed that premiership winning teams are both young and experienced. Full of players who were good enough to debut as a 19 or 20 year old and then part of the winning team at 22 or 23. The youth we should be picking should be ones good enough to break into the team as a youngster rather than affirmative action youth oriented selection policies that could lead to say Hayze Perham being picked which is a waste of a season for the Warriors making a strategic gamble on him.
3) you should play safest options first with known quantity over ‘risk’ with young people?
You should play the best player - frequently but not always that is the more experienced player. But if I were roosters weighing up my halves this year I would be playing Robert Toia at centre ahead of the incumbent journeyman he is up against. I am anti journeymen and in favour of playing strong players in each position however I am also against playing someone just because they are young as reserve grade is where you can learn the fastest. It is very difficult to learn in First grade as touches of the ball are so few and far between and when they happen the time before the defence collides with you is very minimal from an execution stand point so much so it makes learning in first grade almost impossible. In my years following the black caps if we wanted a player to develop the best action was to send them down to first class cricket and then recall them later rather than persist with a youthful underperformer in the blackcaps hoping they will learn.
4) You should forgo future development for the here and now because every season counts?
They can develop in NSW cup

Do you have the same philosophy in business or just elite sport?

Has never come up on my business life as I am not in Human Resources when we do hire people it is based on who is the best candidate regardless of age.

 

[Tookey 2.0]

Hey team, what are everyone's thoughts on Eddie Iramiah getting a start at centre? I don't know much about him, and thought he was more of a back rower, but does that indicate that he's next in line for a call up?

Is Kali a centre or winger specifically? It was only a short stint but I thought he looked to be quite decent last week. Most of the newbies made errors and mistakes where he seemed to fit in seamlessly when he came on.

 

[BangBro's (still banging)]

Hey team, what are everyone's thoughts on Eddie Iramiah getting a start at centre? I don't know much about him, and thought he was more of a back rower, but does that indicate that he's next in line for a call up?

Is Kali a centre or winger specifically? It was only a short stint but I thought he looked to be quite decent last week. Most of the newbies made errors and mistakes where he seemed to fit in seamlessly when he came on.

I think Kali Should play wing, it's more what the NRL team needs. Fully fit we have Berry, Leiataua, Pompey.

Yes you could put him in pompeys place next season and that would be totally fine. To be fair, pompey is 27 and nearly a 100 game vet, he's not anyone's first pick centre.

I'm totally okay with pompey moving on if a club offers a three year deal, because i don't think the warriors should do the same.

Kali has wheels when in space and is not small by any means. I think Toeava is more of a centre Backrow prospect, but he's well behind the order in both areas.

I am looking forward to seeing how he goes there.

 

[The Warrior Waka]

Hey team, what are everyone's thoughts on Eddie Iramiah getting a start at centre? I don't know much about him, and thought he was more of a back rower, but does that indicate that he's next in line for a call up?

Is Kali a centre or winger specifically? It was only a short stint but I thought he looked to be quite decent last week. Most of the newbies made errors and mistakes where he seemed to fit in seamlessly when he came on.

Eddie is the Mr fixit in cup. And does a tremendous job in whatever position he plays. Played well at centre last year when called upon. Opposition players won't go through him. Just worried about the guys with wheels going around him?

Did Kali look significantly bigger to you? Might be a hint, More size headed for longer stints in the centres not so much wing?

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

1) You would rather finish 9th than 13th?
Absolutely - recruits are more likely to come to a 9th placed team than a 13th placed team. Also a team on track for 13th can become dispirited and their lips can drop from all the losses and it can spiral into the wooden spoon or 15th or 16th.
Lastly as a fan I celebrate each win so would enjoy a 9th placed finish much more than a 13th placed and so would the players and sponsors.
2) You should make the youth earn their place?
You posted a fantastic table that showed that premiership winning teams are both young and experienced. Full of players who were good enough to debut as a 19 or 20 year old and then part of the winning team at 22 or 23. The youth we should be picking should be ones good enough to break into the team as a youngster rather than affirmative action youth oriented selection policies that could lead to say Hayze Perham being picked which is a waste of a season for the Warriors making a strategic gamble on him.
3) you should play safest options first with known quantity over ‘risk’ with young people?
You should play the best player - frequently but not always that is the more experienced player. But if I were roosters weighing up my halves this year I would be playing Robert Toia at centre ahead of the incumbent journeyman he is up against. I am anti journeymen and in favour of playing strong players in each position however I am also against playing someone just because they are young as reserve grade is where you can learn the fastest. It is very difficult to learn in First grade as touches of the ball are so few and far between and when they happen the time before the defence collides with you is very minimal from an execution stand point so much so it makes learning in first grade almost impossible. In my years following the black caps if we wanted a player to develop the best action was to send them down to first class cricket and then recall them later rather than persist with a youthful underperformer in the blackcaps hoping they will learn.
4) You should forgo future development for the here and now because every season counts?
They can develop in NSW cup

Do you have the same philosophy in business or just elite sport?

Has never come up on my business life as I am not in Human Resources when we do hire people it is based on who is the best candidate regardless of age.

Great reply!

But do you accept more development occurs in the top grade for good players and getting to the 50 games is a necessary evil?

If we go 9th then 7th then 8th by dribbling youth in or we go 13th then 8th then 4th with a push to get a group with 50 games on the board with homegrown talent rather than imports, that’s rebuild philosophy isn’t it?

Qualification is the talent will be ready young eg Halisima and not a Perham

 

[Inruin]

Qualification is the talent will be ready young eg Halisima and not a Perham

That's a big qualification to your argument. The talent has to be ready first. We are still a way off having a steady stream of youngsters coming through in every position.

Didn't we try previously the push all the youth in to first grade? How did that end up?

 

[Wrighty]

Great reply!

But do you accept more development occurs in the top grade for good players and getting to the 50 games is a necessary evil?

If we go 9th then 7th then 8th by dribbling youth in or we go 13th then 8th then 4th with a push to get a group with 50 games on the board with homegrown talent rather than imports, that’s rebuild philosophy isn’t it?

Qualification is the talent will be ready young eg Halisima and not a Perham

"But do you accept more development occurs in the top grade for good players and getting to the 50 games is a necessary evil?"

No - apart from the players that get quoted every time this topic comes up who actually is a player that came on after 50 games? I know Cooper Cronk is always mentioned as is Jahrome Hughes.
What about CHT he has 71 appearances and hasn't cracked it yet and yet one third of the forum says give him more time.
He isn't going to get any better and most of this knew this after 20 games let alone 50 or 71.
What about Rocco Berry - He has played 43 games and is still whet behind the ears. I don't rate him at all and never did yet the entire forum thinks he is great and that after he plays 60 or 70 games he will arrive. He is not going to arrive.
I mean really? we are going to give people 50 games of first grade time to get used to it and "Arrive". In the black caps a good run for a new prospect is 7 or 8 games. Peter Ingram poor guy got one test and in one innings was run out. Rodney Redmond scored a 100 on debut and never picked again. I don't know why is Rugby league unique as a sport that you need 50 games before you truely assess someone.

I am firmly against this 50 game rule of thumb. If you don't show initial promise or potential then that was your chance at first grade.

"If we go 9th then 7th then 8th by dribbling youth in or we go 13th then 8th then 4th with a push to get a group with 50 games on the board with homegrown talent rather than imports, that’s rebuild philosophy isn’t it?"

If you showed a plan as a prospective coach trying to get hired that you would go 13th then 8th then 4th - how well do you think that would go over with a hiring CEO and board. It is a very risky plan. And I think most of the prospects invested in during the year you come 13th will be Perhams and not Halesema's.
How many Halesema's do we have right now? We have Halesema himself, Demitric Vaimauga and Ali L. All three of those guys were getting good game time this year under any strategy. The only fringe case we are arguing about is Laban. And I think he will end up with 10 games this year and if under a youth rebuilding movement he was given 18-20 games that would be too many for him and hurt his confidence.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

With the loss of SJ, Harris, AFB, Jazz and Montoya with not much coming in, I’m picking a rebuild year.

Got to get excited about the youngsters coming through and it’s more important for me that they get lots of game time, even if there is a few painful moments along the way.

To have an average year and not get runs in the legs of the youth would be a failure. Kosi isn’t a youngster, give the game time to Kali (or whoever’s young) because the results aren’t everything this year.

Bizarre the club hasnt pushed that narrative via the media. Would give Webby some cover

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Hey team, what are everyone's thoughts on Eddie Iramiah getting a start at centre? I don't know much about him, and thought he was more of a back rower, but does that indicate that he's next in line for a call up?

Is Kali a centre or winger specifically? It was only a short stint but I thought he looked to be quite decent last week. Most of the newbies made errors and mistakes where he seemed to fit in seamlessly when he came on.

This reinforces my point about no clear depth chart.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

"But do you accept more development occurs in the top grade for good players and getting to the 50 games is a necessary evil?"

No - apart from the players that get quoted every time this topic comes up who actually is a player that came on after 50 games? I know Cooper Cronk is always mentioned as is Jahrome Hughes.
What about CHT he has 71 appearances and hasn't cracked it yet and yet one third of the forum says give him more time.
He isn't going to get any better and most of this knew this after 20 games let alone 50 or 71.
What about Rocco Berry - He has played 43 games and is still whet behind the ears. I don't rate him at all and never did yet the entire forum thinks he is great and that after he plays 60 or 70 games he will arrive. He is not going to arrive.
I mean really? we are going to give people 50 games of first grade time to get used to it and "Arrive". In the black caps a good run for a new prospect is 7 or 8 games. Peter Ingram poor guy got one test and in one innings was run out. Rodney Redmond scored a 100 on debut and never picked again. I don't know why is Rugby league unique as a sport that you need 50 games before you truely assess someone.

I am firmly against this 50 game rule of thumb. If you don't show initial promise or potential then that was your chance at first grade.

"If we go 9th then 7th then 8th by dribbling youth in or we go 13th then 8th then 4th with a push to get a group with 50 games on the board with homegrown talent rather than imports, that’s rebuild philosophy isn’t it?"

If you showed a plan as a prospective coach trying to get hired that you would go 13th then 8th then 4th - how well do you think that would go over with a hiring CEO and board. It is a very risky plan. And I think most of the prospects invested in during the year you come 13th will be Perhams and not Halesema's.
How many Halesema's do we have right now? We have Halesema himself, Demitric Vaimauga and Ali L. All three of those guys were getting good game time this year under any strategy. The only fringe case we are arguing about is Laban. And I think he will end up with 10 games this year and if under a youth rebuilding movement he was given 18-20 games that would be too many for him and hurt his confidence.

You don’t believe in either the 50 game rule or rebuild years?

We’re talking different languages

 

[BangBro's (still banging)]

This reinforces my point about no clear depth chart.

There is definitely a depth Chart, you just have to study the team list for cup and sprinkle some flegg in there.

It's very fun to do

 

[Fonzie]

Bizarre the club hasnt pushed that narrative via the media. Would give Webby some cover

Webby is a big believer in not messaging externally in a way that gives the players an excuse to fail or undermines self belief.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Webby is a big believer in not messaging externally in a way that gives the players an excuse to fail or undermines self belief.

fair, but it will his head on the chopping block...

 

[Fonzie]

fair, but it will his head on the chopping block...

Only if Management bow to fan pressure. I think Cappy, Webby, Georgie and Robbo will all be on the same page and judge Webby realistically.

 

[Wrighty]

You don’t believe in either the 50 game rule or rebuild years?

We’re talking different languages

Even if we grant the 50 game rule this means two to three years of rebuilding and finishing 13th before making the top 8.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Even if we grant the 50 game rule this means two to three years of rebuilding and finishing 13th before making the top 8.

24 games this year; 24 next and we’re almost there.

None of the CHT or Berry example where it takes 5 years to get to 50 games. Ali should have been first choice round 1 last year. Halisima, Ali and Demitric Vaimauga need to be in the starting 17 every week, not aim for 12 games each a season.

Tuaupiki needs to be in the team every week.

Kali (and the other future first grades) injury cover over journeymen like Kosi.

I guess this whole discussion can be summed up for me really as Kosi shouldn’t be there over juniors.

 

[BangBro's (still banging)]

I see that the fields are going to be shorter the same size as Aligant arena. That should help Martin get some extra kicking metres.

 

[Wrighty]

24 games this year; 24 next and we’re almost there.

None of the CHT or Berry example where it takes 5 years to get to 50 games. Ali should have been first choice round 1 last year. Halisima, Ali and Demitric Vaimauga need to be in the starting 17 every week, not aim for 12 games each a season.

Tuaupiki needs to be in the team every week.

Kali (and the other future first grades) injury cover over journeymen like Kosi.

I guess this whole discussion can be summed up for me really as Kosi shouldn’t be there over juniors.

Hardly anyone plays 24 games in a season. To bring an entire crew of youngsters through 50 games would be three seasons.
And you are really resting your hat on who you gambled on.

Of course I agree Kosi should not be picked ahead of a young junior. Kosi is not even at journeyman level.

Here is more 50 50 call for you to see where you stand? Who do you back at 2nd row starter this year if your choice boiled down to Laban vs Niukore. Let's just put to the side that Demitric Vaimauga is starting at 2md row on the weekend's trial.