Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[Teets]

How did that play out in reality?
Moa - extinct
Native geese - extinct
Native ducks - extinct
Huia - extinct.

Geez humans hunting animals to extinction, what a shocker.

Come to think of it, wonder where all the Great Auk of Britian disappeared to?

 

[MrFrankWhite]

long-term thinking (intergenerational well-being is a central pillar of Kaupapa Maori) esp around sustainability (Guardianship)

Geez humans hunting animals to extinction, what a shocker.

 

[dean]

This is the correct take. In Aus and NZ colonialism was a net benefit to the indigenous population.

Maori were colonisers. They colonised the Moriori and some tribes colonised others at various times.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Maori were colonisers. They colonised the Moriori and some tribes colonised others at various times.

I wasnt going to touch that one myself

 

[defensivebomb]

I just think the argument against colonisation is like an argument against say, the existence of a mosquito, or how the atomic bomb happened

It just is.

Yes, it could have been done better.

But at the same time, it couldn’t. Because that’s how it happened, for better or worse, for all of us to get to where we are now

 

[Teets]

Whats the equivalence you're drawing?

Are you saying any race who ever hunted an animal to extinction can't then claim enviromental guardianship of their homeland?

 

[Damo]

Maori were colonisers. They colonised the Moriori and some tribes colonised others at various times.

Bit of a can of worms with this one, bit of a myth though.

A few iwi went to the Chathams and killed off most of the Moriori, who some say were an off shoot of the first Māori to get to the mainland while others say the Moriori were on the Chathams prior.

By all accounts its a combination of both.

 

[juju]

I just think the argument against colonisation is like an argument against say, the existence of a mosquito, or how the atomic bomb happened

It just is.

Yes, it could have been done better.

But at the same time, it couldn’t. Because that’s how it happened, for better or worse, for all of us to get to where we are now

Is the argument about colonisation?

or the treaty and subsequent long history of it being ignored & breached?

 

[dean]

Bit of a can of worms with this one, bit of a myth though.

A few iwi went to the Chathams and killed off most of the Moriori, who some say were an off shoot of the first Māori to get to the mainland while others say the Moriori were on the Chathams prior.

By all accounts its a combination of both.

Yes, but one tribe imposing themselves on another is colonisation. There are probably very few people or races or ethnicities that have never been colonised. Most races have been colonised multiple times.

 

[defensivebomb]

Is the argument about colonisation?

or the treaty and subsequent long history of it being ignored & breached?

Current argument on the streets of Wellington is about the treaty

I was musing about colonisation in general, as a side thought

 

[Damo]

Yes, but one tribe imposing themselves on another is colonisation. There are probably very few people or races or ethnicities that have never been colonised. Most races have been colonised multiple times.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Are you saying any race who ever hunted an animal to extinction can't then claim enviromental guardianship of their homeland?

They cant cosplay as having a special relationship of conservation. Would you say thats fair?

 

[tyrael]

Maori were colonisers. They colonised the Moriori and some tribes colonised others at various times.

MrFrankWhite
View: https://youtu.be/b0WclQV6Fis?si=FgufscyPhZx-5kqA

 

[MrFrankWhite]

MrFrankWhite
View: https://youtu.be/b0WclQV6Fis?si=FgufscyPhZx-5kqA

Is that two Māori givng the history of MoriMori? Don't see the irony in that?

But thanks for the link. Interesting

 

[Damo]

Is that two Māori givng the history of MoriMori? Don't see the irony in that?

But thanks for the link. Interesting

Yeah, ironic for sure. At least they provide some legitimate sources for their information.

 

[Inruin]

Is that two Māori givng the history of MoriMori? Don't see the irony in that?

But thanks for the link. Interesting

Moriori: Still setting the record straight | E-Tangata

“What happened to our people has been, and to a large extent remains, an inconvenient truth and stain on the history and conscience of our nation.” — Moriori leader Maui Solomon.

e-tangata.co.nz

 

[Teets]

They cant cosplay as having a special relationship of conservation. Would you say thats fair?

I'd say judging what you think people can choose to be or believe by the actions of long dead ancestors is a slippery slope.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

I'd say judging what you think people can choose to be or believe by the actions of long dead ancestors is a slippery slope.

Huh? Im not "going off" anything. A question was asked about co-governance and and answer was given that implied Maori have some sort of innate guardianship knowledge. I merely pointed out that doesn't appear to be the case looking at the record.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

What if they only ever traded. Wouldn't that also have been a net benefit to both?

This is an interesting point of view.

Would Maori have developed without foreign capital investment and foreign economic and educational systems? We will never now but I would suggest NZ would be an isolated backwater like much of the pacific islands or Africa.

Would it have been better? All perspective but many islanders currently leave for ‘western’ countries. 170,000 Maori have left for the bright lights of Australia which is a hugely significant 20% of the Maori population. The take away for me is Maori embrace western colonised society.

 

[Matiunz]

They cant cosplay as having a special relationship of conservation. Would you say thats fair?

Have always found this a little ironic and a bit if revisionist history. Fits much better into todays values but an afterthought in Hunter gatherer survival.
Haast Eagle extinct due to over hunting of Moa, Tuatara hunted to extinction on mainlands, numerous other species along with massive areas of forest burnt to clear for crops and hunting doesn’t paint a conservationist picture