Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[miket12]

Let me just get a pen, this is good stuff...

I'd get a screenshot first in case it gets deleted

 

[juju]

Hey, if you have the same attitude toward the Groundswell farmers' protest, the School Strike for Climate, and the 2015 TPPA protests, then more power to you. I just feel like I mostly hear those kinds of criticisms when it comes to protests with a majority Māori representation. That said, I recognize I have my own selective biases, so I’m asking the question rather than making any kind of accusation.

Interesting to juxtapose the signs (and nooses even) that JA copped during the ground swell & mandate protests.
Compared to the signs and sentiment with the hikoi - they were almost as creative as the signs at a Warriors game.

The best signs from the final day of the Toitū Te Tiriti hīkoi

From 'cede deez nutz' to 'be more demure Seymour', Pōneke protesters raised the bar as they descended on parliament.

thespinoff.co.nz

 

[Worried2Death]

I'd get a screenshot first in case it gets deleted

As far as I'm concerned Brownstone said something stupid, got called on it, withdrew and apologised. That's how self policing forums should work, but I can feel Tajhay's hammer hovering, as I recall it's about this time of year half of us in this thread get banned for the offseason.

 

[miket12]

Interesting to juxtapose the signs (and nooses even) that JA copped during the ground swell & mandate protests.
Compared to the signs and sentiment with the hikoi - they were almost as creative as the signs at a Warriors game.

The best signs from the final day of the Toitū Te Tiriti hīkoi

From 'cede deez nutz' to 'be more demure Seymour', Pōneke protesters raised the bar as they descended on parliament.

thespinoff.co.nz

One of the best outcomes of this would be for the other parties to use ACT's bill against them and re-write it.... they'd have the numbers and ACT would be powerless to stop them.

Edit.... does anyone know if ACT could withdraw the Bill if it was hijacked by the other parties?

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

So much division on here. If only we could all be equal!

Nah… half of us dont really wants that, hence the outcry about Seymour’s bill

 

[miket12]

As far as I'm concerned Brownstone said something stupid, got called on it, withdrew and apologised. That's how self policing forums should work, but I can feel Tajhay's hammer hovering, as I recall it's about this time of year half of us in this thread get banned for the offseason.

Shit.... if I self-policed my posts like that.... 95% of them would go

 

[Worried2Death]

One of the best outcomes of this would be for the other parties to use ACT's bill against them and re-write it.... they'd have the numbers and ACT would be powerless to stop them.

Edit.... does anyone know if ACT could withdraw the Bill if it was hijacked by the other parties?

Doesn't Winston have an agreement to table his own treaty principles bill next? What if they're playing good cop/bad cop with a hapless Luxon caught in the middle like their naive bald puppet?

 

[defensivebomb]

Funnily enough, I actually think this whole bill, and the hikoi, has actually been a healthy exercise. I’ve personally learned a bit more about the treaty and I’m sure others have too, whether or not they want to admit it

Whether you like / hate / are indifferent to the bill, it has actually flushed out a lot of good debate, facts and education about our founding doc, and that’s actually a healthy thing for society

I know Seymour’s intention was to get it passed, which it obviously won’t, but it has actually provoked a lot of constructive learnings as people have come to better understand the problems with the treaty and how it has been administered.

It’s like one of those awkward dinner party fights where a long simmering tension boils over and everyone goes away and reflects on how we got here and how things will be at the next dinner party

Hikoi supporters will probably go away thinking about how it was defeated, but surely there will also be reflection about how things can constructively operate, going forward. Queen Vic is dead and I’m sure Charles won’t be stumping up with any coin and the last few years have demonstrated that things need to have a long-term and realistic objective, and be government-agnostic

 

[miket12]

On a totally different topic, there's some sort of emergency happening in the Cook Strait. Earlier in the evening, a RNZAF Poseidon and several helicopters were searching in the Nelson Bays area and now the RNZAF aircraft has moved northeast and is now searching at a height of only a few hundred feet in the Tasman, west of Palmerston North.



Edit.... a pilot of a single engine light plane has ditched his plane in Ruby Bay and has been rescued by helicopter.

 

[Rizzah]

Funnily enough, I actually think this whole bill, and the hikoi, has actually been a healthy exercise. I’ve personally learned a bit more about the treaty and I’m sure others have too, whether or not they want to admit it

Whether you like / hate / are indifferent to the bill, it has actually flushed out a lot of good debate, facts and education about our founding doc, and that’s actually a healthy thing for society

I know Seymour’s intention was to get it passed, which it obviously won’t, but it has actually provoked a lot of constructive learnings as people have come to better understand the problems with the treaty and how it has been administered.

It’s like one of those awkward dinner party fights where a long simmering tension boils over and everyone goes away and reflects on how we got here and how things will be at the next dinner party

Hikoi supporters will probably go away thinking about how it was defeated, but surely there will also be reflection about how things can constructively operate, going forward. Queen Vic is dead and I’m sure Charles won’t be stumping up with any coin and the last few years have demonstrated that things need to have a long-term and realistic objective, and be government-agnostic

Good debate? Seymour’s completely blocked expert critique and excluded Maori, the other Treaty partner from any meaningful input into the bill. How can there be a constructive discussion when the most affected are ignored?
This bill isn’t about improving governance; it’s about stripping Maori rights and removing protections that ensure shared stewardship. It’s a deliberate move to weaken the Treaty’s role in our legal framework.
Why would Charles be stumping up coin?
This is all pretty incoherent.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Shit.... if I self-policed my posts like that.... 95% of them would go

If I were consistent then it would be just about all of mine!

 

[defensivebomb]

Good debate? Seymour’s completely blocked expert critique and excluded Maori, the other Treaty partner, from any meaningful input into the bill. How can there be a constructive discussion when the most affected are ignored?
This bill isn’t about improving governance; it’s about stripping Maori rights and removing protections that ensure shared stewardship. It’s a deliberate move to weaken the Treaty’s role in our legal framework.
Why would Charles be stumping up coin?
This is all pretty incoherent.

Good debate as in - discussion around the country. Person to person. Water cooler chat. News articles. Tv pieces about “what’s this all about” etc. It’s actually healthy to talk about these things

The bill’s going nowhere. You don’t need to be an expert to see that

 

[Rizzah]

Good debate as in - discussion around the country. Person to person. Water cooler chat. News articles. Tv pieces about “what’s this all about” etc. It’s actually healthy to talk about these thing

Discussion is healthy if you have an solid understanding of the treaty and the history, which sadly most NZers don't have.
Coming into the discussion from a place of ignorance isn't really helpful at all.

Edit: If the water cooler chat is encouraging people to investigate this more and read up on the history then yes, it may have done some good. But if all your getting is info from cherry-picked opinion pieces - I'm not sure that is helpful at all.

 

[Rizzah]

Discussion is healthy if you have an solid understanding of the treaty and the history, which sadly most NZers don't have.
Coming into the discussion from a place of ignorance isn't really helpful at all.

If we all had a deeper understanding of NZ history and our founding document, I don't think this discussion would even be on the table.

 

[defensivebomb]

Discussion is healthy if you have an solid understanding of the treaty and the history, which sadly most NZers don't have.
Coming at it from a place of ignorance isn't really helpful at all.

Discussion is always healthy, regardless of understanding of history. The belief that only certain people can discuss the treaty is actually one of the key drivers of this debate.

Seymour says the courts shouldn’t do it, that it’s parliament’s role. People with a deep understanding of the treaty say “your opinion doesn’t hold water” so dont want to discuss it.

Opponents of the bill shouldn’t argue about the process not being inclusive if they actively discourage other members of society from even talking about the subject

The best way for people to educate is to actually thrash things out in a conversation. It’s NZs founding doc. It should be discussed so people can understand the other’s point of view and understand how our society works and sometimes doesnt

 

[Worried2Death]

If we all had a deeper understanding of NZ history and our founding document, I don't think this discussion would even be on the table.

I'm all for the debate as an opportunity to learn the history, my prejudice is that I inherently don't trust the motives of David Seymour. Before this he was literallly in an Atlas Network grooming program talking in a broad Canadian accent on tv ffs. What is he a chameleon, like the ACT David Bowie?

 

[Inruin]

I'm all for the debate as an opportunity to learn the history, my prejudice is that I inherently don't trust the motives of David Seymour. Before this he was literallly in an Atlas Network grooming programme talking in a broad Candaian accent on tv ffs, what is he a chameleon like the ACT David Bowie?

The more I listen to everyone the more I think Winston makes the most sense!

 

[miket12]

I'm all for the debate as an opportunity to learn the history, my prejudice is that I inherently don't trust the motives of David Seymour. Before this he was literallly in an Atlas Network grooming programme talking in a broad Candaian accent on tv ffs, what is he a chameleon like David Bowie?

The Canadian accent was created using Artificial Intelligence..... because most people can see there's no Natural Intelligence there

 

[defensivebomb]

Discussion is healthy if you have an solid understanding of the treaty and the history, which sadly most NZers don't have.
Coming into the discussion from a place of ignorance isn't really helpful at all.

Edit: If the water cooler chat is encouraging people to investigate this more and read up on the history then yes, it may have done some good. But if all your getting is info from cherry-picked opinion pieces - I'm not sure that is helpful at all.

Yeah I was reflecting on this yesterday when my wife asked me my stance on it all, and why people are marching against Seymour. It did make me reflect on their point of view, and how it isn’t quite black and white (pun is inappropriate but also mildly intended)

I think Labour (particularly Ardern and Jackson) did a disservice to Treaty relations and understanding by implementing co-governance elements but actually not being open about why / how with the electorate. And that’s opened the door for Seymour to step in

 

[roguei]

I'm all for the debate as an opportunity to learn the history, my prejudice is that I inherently don't trust the motives of David Seymour. Before this he was literallly in an Atlas Network grooming programme talking in a broad Candaian accent on tv ffs, what is he a chameleon like David Bowie?

Must of seen how a "left" leaning canada treats it's indigenous peoples and gone "how can i replicate that here?".