Social ⚔️ Palestine, Israel war.

Hamas represents Gaza. Why are the IDF and Israeli Settlers (a.k.a fully armed army reserves) murdering Palestinians in the West Bank?
 
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wizard of Tauranga said:
I have no side in the war.

But it seems clear to me Israel has used the Hamas attack to settle the ongoing war once and for all through genocide annd erasing Gaza from the map.

I don’t know the answers but with my limited knowledge:

1 - Israel is committing war crimes
2 - Hamas is representative of Palestine. The people didn’t rise up against and remove Hamas and they are now paying a high price as Israel does it for them…
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I reject the word Genocide as propaganda. Words matter. If Israel wanted Genocide they could have it any day of the week. In Israel you have judges, politicians, officials in high ranking positions who are Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims etc, this is not genocide, if it was those people would be removed or killed like in real genocides such as Germany or Rwanda.

Using the word genocide is propaganda, and manipulation of the facts.

Does Netanyahu want Gaza removed? Yes…. Has he always wanted it? Probably. is this his excuse to get it? Most likely.
Are all Israelis on board with Netanyahu? No.
Did some enter the war not expecting this level of destruction? Absolutely.
Many Israelis just wanted the hostages back and for the destruction of Hamass main military bases etc.
 

View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/Ymgj6NNMvtA

The point I am making is the constant attacks and attempted murder of Israelis is what Hamas are all about. It is part of who Hamas is. If Israel had no Iron Dome we would have had a genocide of Jewish people, 100%. Where as with Israel there has not been a genocide of Palestinian people but they are sick of the constant missile attacks and other attacks which are a way of life in normal Israel. People get upset about Israeli walls and security but terrorists and Palestinian governments have constantly been attacking Israel…. What do you expect them to do?

Then you have people crying about apartheid and segregation… they know very little of what’s going on. Remember radical Islam, desperately wants Israel but they also want the whole world including the west. This is partly why I support Israel’s right to eradicate evil Hamas, but am concerned by the amount of death that has been caused by their response.
 
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Boston Boy said:
I reject the word Genocide as propaganda. Words matter.
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Genocide - the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

I see the deliberate aim of destroying the country Palestine - not Palestinians. Genocide. War crimes.

Rightly or wrongly I think Israel see the destruction of Palestine as the only avenue available for real long term peace due to the inability of the two parties to live together (which Palestine is also guilty of).

There ls no winners. No good guys. Just an ugly war over land. If I was a Palestinian or Israelite, I would have left years ago…
 
Boston Boy said:
It is always interesting to watch people who lean into Hamas get carried away with their media and become so reactive, not use argumentation and attack the person rather than the argument put forward.

The interesting thing is, I haven’t seen comments like:
Hamas is sick.
What Hamas did was wrong.
Look at what they’ve done to their own people.
ONE WAY TRAFFIC HERE AND WATCH OUT IF YOU CALL HAMAS ISLAMIC TERRORISTS. It seems to stir people up.

I can happily admit that it seems that Israel has gone to far in some of their raids. It’s horrible about how many innocents have died, but if you can’t admit Hamas is a massive problem in this then you might just have a problem and you are probably blinded by propaganda.
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Always interesting to watch well fed westerners try and moralizes situations they couldn't possibly imagine. Nothing you say has any substantive value because you are moralizing from your couch. If you had the first clue about geopolitical struggle youd know several facts;

There are no illegal acts against armed occupation and;
By any mean necessary;

If you want to pontificate about the rights and wrong of armed struggle, go put on a uniform and go serve. Otherwise save the "woe the poor colonizer'
rhetoric for people still stupid enough to believe it.
 
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Boston Boy said:

View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/Ymgj6NNMvtA

The point I am making is the constant attacks and attempted murder of Israelis is what Hamas are all about. It is part of who Hamas is.
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of course it is. They want their land back. While Israel continues to illegal occupy it, they will continue to fight.
Boston Boy said:
If Israel had no Iron Dome we would have had a genocide of Jewish people, 100%.
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Bullshit, they will just be forcibly removed from the stolen land.
Boston Boy said:
Where as with Israel there has not been a genocide of Palestinian people but they are sick of the constant missile attacks and other attacks which are a way of life in normal Israel. People get upset about Israeli walls and security but terrorists and Palestinian governments have constantly been attacking Israel…. What do you expect them to do?
Click to expand...
Leave
Boston Boy said:
Then you have people crying about apartheid and segregation… they know very little of what’s going on. Remember radical Islam, desperately wants Israel but they also want the whole world including the west. This is partly why I support Israel’s right to eradicate evil Hamas, but am concerned by the amount of death that has been caused by their response.
Click to expand...
How long have you lived and worked in the Middle East and the region? I'm guessing you've spent significant time in Islamabad and Tehran then...
 
wizard of Tauranga said:
Genocide - the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

I see the deliberate aim of destroying the country Palestine - not Palestinians. Genocide. War crimes.

Rightly or wrongly I think Israel see the destruction of Palestine as the only avenue available for real long term peace due to the inability of the two parties to live together (which Palestine is also guilty of).

There ls no winners. No good guys. Just an ugly war over land. If I was a Palestinian or Israelite, I would have left years ago…
Click to expand...
To be fair, I believe it is possible that Netanyahu has had a more aggressive agenda that may be close to what you are suggesting. I still don’t believe in general Israel initially intended to degrade Palestine to its current condition. It has occurred in their rage to destroy Hamas.

I don’t believe their intention is destroy the Palestinian people when their is evidence the army has tried to preserve Palestinian life. Therefore I don’t believe it’s Genocide, the real evidence will be whether they allow Palestinians to rebuild Gaza etc. That will be the answer.

Regarding the definition of Genocide you provided. Their is a group of people who clearly have fulfilled the conditions multiple times:
View: https://x.com/__donhulio__/status/1788165357837877481?s=46[/URL]
 
'Keep Hamas alive and kicking'

This symbiotic relationship between Netanyahu and Hamas has been remarked on for years, by both friends and enemies, hawks and doves.

Yuval Diskin, former head of Israel's Shin Bet security service, told the daily newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth in 2013 that "if we look at it over the years, one of the main people contributing to Hamas's strengthening has been Bibi Netanyahu, since his first term as prime minister."

In August 2019, former prime minister Ehud Barak told Israeli Army Radio that Netanyahu's "strategy is to keep Hamas alive and kicking … even at the price of abandoning the citizens [of the south] … in order to weaken the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah."

The logic underlying this strategy, Barak said, is that "it's easier with Hamas to explain to Israelis that there is no one to sit with and no one to talk to."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035
 
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HAMAS- An Israeli Production
But did you also know that Hamas — which is an Arabic acronym for “Islamic Resistance Movement” — would probably not exist today were it not for the Jewish state? That the Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian Islamists in the late 1970s into one of the world’s most notorious militant groups? That Hamas is blowback?

This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)

“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote.

They didn’t listen to him. And Hamas, as I explain in the fifth installment of my short film series for The Intercept on blowback, was the result. To be clear: First, the Israelis helped build up a militant strain of Palestinian political Islam, in the form of Hamas and its Muslim Brotherhood precursors; then, the Israelis switched tack and tried to bomb, besiege, and blockade it out of existence.

In the past decade alone, Israel has gone to war with Hamas three times — in 2009, 2012, and 2014 — killing around 2,500 Palestinian civilians in Gaza in the process. Meanwhile, Hamas has killed far more Israeli civilians than any secular Palestinian militant group. This is the human cost of blowback.

“When I look back at the chain of events, I think we made a mistake,” David Hacham, a former Arab affairs expert in the Israeli military who was based in Gaza in the 1980s, later remarked. “But at the time, nobody thought about the possible results.”


https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
 
Israel created HAMAS.
Regrets among those Israeli officials who helped the creation of Hamas are well documented. For instance, Avner Cohen, a Tunisia-born Jew who was an Israeli official in Gaza dealing with religious affairs during 1970s and 1980s, lamented that “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation”. He observed the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then evolved into what is today Hamas — a militant group that now calls for Israel’s destruction. Cohen argued that “instead of trying to curb Gaza’s Islamists from the outset, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat’s Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas”. Does it mean that Hamas was clever enough to dodge shrewd Israeli intelligence service by portraying itself as a welfare and charity organisation in order to get itself establish in Gaza and then confront Israel?

Bit of bla bla here.

Furthermore, Brig General Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s, told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as ‘a creature of Israel’).” General Segev even admitted to funding Hamas himself with Israeli taxpayers’ money that was later used to kill the same people who were funding them.

One can draw two conclusions from the above discussion. One, it was purely in the Israeli interest to support and patronise first Mujama al-Islamiya and then Hamas. It also means that like the US which created and nourished various Jihadi groups in Afghanistan and elsewhere, Israel cannot escape from the responsibility of creating Hamas. Two, Hamas’ rise and surge in 1990s and thereafter the weakening of PLO and the Palestinian community strengthened Israeli occupation over West Bank and the blockade of Gaza. Hence the perpetual ordeals of Palestinians.


https://tribune.com.pk/story/2302309/how-and-why-israel-helped-create-hamas
 
Boston Boy said:
I reject the word Genocide as propaganda. Words matter. If Israel wanted Genocide they could have it any day of the week. In Israel you have judges, politicians, officials in high ranking positions who are Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims etc, this is not genocide, if it was those people would be removed or killed like in real genocides such as Germany or Rwanda.

Using the word genocide is propaganda, and manipulation of the facts.

Does Netanyahu want Gaza removed? Yes…. Has he always wanted it? Probably. is this his excuse to get it? Most likely.
Are all Israelis on board with Netanyahu? No.
Did some enter the war not expecting this level of destruction? Absolutely.
Many Israelis just wanted the hostages back and for the destruction of Hamass main military bases etc.
Click to expand...
Says the guy regurgitating Israeli propaganda
 
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wizard of Tauranga said:
There ls no winners. No good guys. Just an ugly war over land. If I was a Palestinian or Israelite, I would have left years ago…
Click to expand...
Tend to agree but don't think it's that easy for Palistinian refugees to get citizenship anywhere else, even the neighbours are reluctant to welcome them. Rishi Sunak wants to send them back or fly them to fukn Rwanda.

Another complexity is the Judeo-Christian belief in the promised land, there's no rational solution for religious certainty.

Also, historically the progroms always come back in time so where is it safe for Jews to go? If the US were to set aside land in Ohio or somewhere, the true believers will never pack up and leave, they'll fight to the death like jihadis, and secular Jews are never safe from anti-semitism anywhere, it's existential survival.

As you say, I hope it doesn't come down to one side genociding the other from the river to the sea to achieve "peace". Oy gevalt.
 
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Spoke to a 2nd cousin in Haifa last week, I haven't been in contact much because they don't need some distant kiwi relative bugging them for intel during a war. He says the general sentiment is that Bibi is a crook and trying to save his ass from his fraud prosecutions, and should be arrested or assassinated. Has a son in the IDF with PTSD symptoms from what he's seen. Total nightmare for the Gazan civilians and all concerned, perpetrated by Netanyahu, his accomplices and Hamas.
 
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Great news. 4 hostages were saved, lots of terrorists killed. Must be getting closer to it being over. No celebrations here, must have missed it 👍.
 
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