General why change a winning team...

DanKokoro_old

Guest
Haha I seriously think romel has been sent here to destroy me.

If I call him uninformed I'll get banned again...yet he's either the biggest troll on the forums, or he lives on Mars.

Ropati and Mara dropped? It's as if he not only visits the forum once a fortnight - he also avoids any sort of league related news or media.

yeah... ridiculous.. obviously didn't learn anything from the last thread. I must have heard from about 10 different sources that Mara was under an injury cloud.. I don't see how it's possible to avoid hearing information like that.. particularly if you're a big enough fan that you join a supporters forum.

BTW i ran out of credit BRAH..
 

DanKokoro_old

Guest
this is all clearys fault seriously...poor player choices,poor substitutions,poor player preperation and moral....

this shit gets reaaaally tiring.. seriously.. you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and frankly, you make an ass out of yourself pretty much every time you post..
 

Tajhay_old

Guest
Has someone told romel that steve price has retired and hasn't been dropped to vulcans?
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
Never disputed that, and said it many times before that when he came to the club he was very much needed to instill that attitude into the players, much the same as we needed Price.

But at what point do the training wheels come off for some of these players who need Luck holding their hand ( slight exaggeration I know)? Mentality aside, Luck is still a one dimensional player in a multi faceted game.

It's also nice that Luck has all the players respect and they speak highly of him, but I bet the all the Broncos players would've said the same about Wally Lewis when the Broncos axed him. League is a business and the goal is to win a premiership. Warm fuzzies don't win premierships.

Our conservative unbalanced backrow is not a premiership winning backrow and adding Mateo isn't going to change that imo (unless we suddenly get some decent halves/hookers/fullback to back up Maloney.)

It's not unbalanced. Infact, I can't see how it nowadays could be described as unbalanced.

You have:-

Luck - tackling machine
Mannering - slightly more offensive but still a tackler by and large
Brown - a player who looks for opportunities
Ta'ai - a player who DEFINITELY looks for opportunities
Lousi - a young kid who in U20s was always looking for opportunities, but also has a very good grasp of the basics

Am I missing something?

You then add in Feleti Mateo, who has been given the express request of ball playing... what are you after exactly, KTF? A team full of Ali Lauitiiti's? You've certainly got me miffed... The team has a decent 'organisation' in it next year, you can clearly see the influence Maloney and Seymour have on getting the team around the park. Maloney also has a spark in him. You add in Mateo to help pry open teams in the opposition 20 which we in fairness do lack somewhat... isn't that a good balance??

As far as when the 'training wheels' come off, I would dare say the coaching staff and the players who repeatedly trot out how important Luck is to them would be in a fairly good position to answer that. The last time the 'training wheels' came off, was when Kevin Campion left. We slid down the table the next year, having a good end to the season to see us into 6th. The following year we were absolutely abysmal. On paper, we had a very attacking backrow. What happened?

Isn't the aim to have a balance? So here we have 2 backrowers who are indisputedly defensive by nature, and 3 who it cannot be questioned look for attacking opportunities. And the problem with that is...?

Sorry mate, but I disagree by about ninety million percent.
 

Spence_old

Guest
I'm sure romel will agree, but I think we would have been safer with Sean Hoppe in the right wing position, Joe Vagana and Steve Price interchanging with Rapira and Packer, Brandy at halfback, Ali Lauitiiti ahead of Ukuma Ta'ai... WHY WERE THEY DROPPED?!! ARGHHHH!!!!!! I agree with romel... ITS ALL IVAN CLEARYS FAULT!

Haha, alrighty. Probably enough dirt dishing on Romel now, I think he gets the point. Romel - Next time you make accusations like that perhaps begin by asking if the players were dropped or injured, then things like this won't happen. Although, it was a nice distraction from the hurt of the game.
 

Moz_old

Guest
is that Romel as in German General and tank commander , the so called "desert rat" of North Africa?????
 

KeepingTheFaith_old

Guest
It's not unbalanced. Infact, I can't see how it nowadays could be described as unbalanced.

You have:-

Luck - tackling machine
Mannering - slightly more offensive but still a tackler by and large
Brown - a player who looks for opportunities
Ta'ai - a player who DEFINITELY looks for opportunities
Lousi - a young kid who in U20s was always looking for opportunities, but also has a very good grasp of the basics

Am I missing something?

You then add in Feleti Mateo, who has been given the express request of ball playing... what are you after exactly, KTF? A team full of Ali Lauitiiti's? You've certainly got me miffed... The team has a decent 'organisation' in it next year, you can clearly see the influence Maloney and Seymour have on getting the team around the park. Maloney also has a spark in him. You add in Mateo to help pry open teams in the opposition 20 which we in fairness do lack somewhat... isn't that a good balance??

As far as when the 'training wheels' come off, I would dare say the coaching staff and the players who repeatedly trot out how important Luck is to them would be in a fairly good position to answer that. The last time the 'training wheels' came off, was when Kevin Campion left. We slid down the table the next year, having a good end to the season to see us into 6th. The following year we were absolutely abysmal. On paper, we had a very attacking backrow. What happened?

Isn't the aim to have a balance? So here we have 2 backrowers who are indisputedly defensive by nature, and 3 who it cannot be questioned look for attacking opportunities. And the problem with that is...?

Sorry mate, but I disagree by about ninety million percent.

Very misleading arguement you present there. Are Ta'ai, Louisi, Mateo, Brown, Mannering, Luck all going to be named in the team and be given equal minutes?

There's 240 minutes of football that a backrower can play in any given game. Saying that we have Brown, Ta'ai, Louisi as attacking players is pointless when they're not in the team. Luck will play 80 minutes most games, Mannering will play 80 minutes most games. That leaves Mateo to shoulder the attacking responsibility for 55-60 minutes and either Brown or Ta'ai to pick up some token minutes while also filling in elsewhere.

Throw in the fact that our 1,6,7,9 are well behind the top teams and where are the breaks/tries going to come from outside of "give it to Manu"? Maloney has been great though, and will get even better, especially if he can cut down the errors/penalties. Can't expect him to spark everything this early in his career though.

Comparing Campion with Luck as if that's the only factor here is disregarding everything else that was going on at the club back in 2003/2004 which had a much larger effect on the team than one player, albeit it a very good one, leaving.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
the... desert.. fox? Hope not though because as Lego_Man has pointed out before, his name was spelt Rommel

I know I'm a stickler for the minor details, but I think the fact that Rommel died almost 66 years ago is a bigger hint that our OP isn't the German general than the spelling of his name...
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
Very misleading arguement you present there. Are Ta'ai, Louisi, Mateo, Brown, Mannering, Luck all going to be named in the team and be given equal minutes?

There's 240 minutes of football that a backrower can play in any given game. Saying that we have Brown, Ta'ai, Louisi as attacking players is pointless when they're not in the team. Luck will play 80 minutes most games, Mannering will play 80 minutes most games. That leaves Mateo to shoulder the attacking responsibility for 55-60 minutes and either Brown or Ta'ai to pick up some token minutes while also filling in elsewhere.

Throw in the fact that our 1,6,7,9 are well behind the top teams and where are the breaks/tries going to come from outside of "give it to Manu"? Maloney has been great though, and will get even better, especially if he can cut down the errors/penalties. Can't expect him to spark everything this early in his career though.

Comparing Campion with Luck as if that's the only factor here is disregarding everything else that was going on at the club back in 2003/2004 which had a much larger effect on the team than one player, albeit it a very good one, leaving.

I think you will find Friday night was somewhat of a prelude of things to come (and he has also done it a couple of other times in the season), in that Luck will not be relied on for 80 minutes, week in, week out.

I get the feeling from your posts that you would think the only type of back row that can be successful is one of say a Lauitiiti, Lauitiiti times 2, Lauitiiti number 3... it won't happen like that. For most, if not all of the games in 2011, provided injuries are kept to a minimum you are likely to see Feleti Mateo and/or Lewis Brown on the field at the same time. If they're just interchanging with each other, they'll be on for an 80 minute spell. However, I would imagine they will be looking to spell Mannering for 10-15 minutes at least as well. I feel you are undervaluing greatly Mateo's ability to create, he will create breaks and tries for this team.

The comparison with Luck and Campion is valid. There is a hidden element you are not taking into consideration. Work ethic. And the example that sets for others to follow. Both of them have it by the bucketload. 2003 and 2004 we did not have a similar player. There is absolutely no coincidence in my mind that our two most successful periods by and large have been when Luck and Campion have been at this club.
 

KeepingTheFaith_old

Guest
I think you will find Friday night was somewhat of a prelude of things to come (and he has also done it a couple of other times in the season), in that Luck will not be relied on for 80 minutes, week in, week out.

I get the feeling from your posts that you would think the only type of back row that can be successful is one of say a Lauitiiti, Lauitiiti times 2, Lauitiiti number 3... it won't happen like that. For most, if not all of the games in 2011, provided injuries are kept to a minimum you are likely to see Feleti Mateo and/or Lewis Brown on the field at the same time. If they're just interchanging with each other, they'll be on for an 80 minute spell. However, I would imagine they will be looking to spell Mannering for 10-15 minutes at least as well. I feel you are undervaluing greatly Mateo's ability to create, he will create breaks and tries for this team.

The comparison with Luck and Campion is valid. There is a hidden element you are not taking into consideration. Work ethic. And the example that sets for others to follow. Both of them have it by the bucketload. 2003 and 2004 we did not have a similar player. There is absolutely no coincidence in my mind that our two most successful periods by and large have been when Luck and Campion have been at this club.

Ali, Ali, Ali - in all seriousness, how often do you have to say that? Everytime someone thinks our backrow needs more attacking players or our team in general is lacking attacking players you trot out that line as a counter arguement. Ali's long gone, I'm long over it.

Maybe you should read my posts again if that's the feeling you're getting. At no stage have I asked for 3 Ali style players or even gone close to it. I've consistenly said that Mannering/Luck for 80 minutes each is too much. If it doesn't work out that way then I won't have a problem with them both being in the team.

Not underestimating Mateo at all, but anyone who thinks Mateo coming in is all this team needs with everything else staying the same is kidding themselves. He's not the magic solution.

In 2003 we also lost PJ Marsh who was in peak form and a QLD rep giving us incredible service out of dummy half. Ali also had his medical issues and was never the same player as 2002 where he was the best second rower that year. We also lost Cleary who was just as infuential as Campion and was the exact type of fullback we need now who is more of a link than an extra half.

I'd say the issue from 2002 compared to 2003/2004 was losing several key players/experienced heads and leaving ourselves with not enough cool heads. From that point of view I can understand re-signing Luck this year considering we lost that same thing with Price/Tate.

Who said I didn't consider work ethic? I just don't think one single person leaving would result in the rest of the team turning to mud in regards to work ethic.

Having said that, with Price/Tate both leaving I can understand re-signing Luck, but 3 years is too much in my opinion (like a contract is worth much anyway) and as long as both he and Mannering don't play 80 minutes each I don't have an issue with the team.

That would just give me more energy to focus my whinging on our 1,6,7,9 combination.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
Well lets just wait until next season. I distinctly doubt particularly in the case of Mannering that he'll be playing 80 minutes. I think our back row both in variety and attacking impetus are going to improve with Mateo into the balance. I think we are 90-95% there. I think we play a 'finals' football type mentality already. The game on Friday night was an example of nerves, not our style and ability to win tough games, but we need a game breaker. That's why to me Mateo adds to the balance.

Agree to disagree.
 

KeepingTheFaith_old

Guest
Well lets just wait until next season. I distinctly doubt particularly in the case of Mannering that he'll be playing 80 minutes. I think our back row both in variety and attacking impetus are going to improve with Mateo into the balance. I think we are 90-95% there. I think we play a 'finals' football type mentality already. The game on Friday night was an example of nerves, not our style and ability to win tough games, but we need a game breaker. That's why to me Mateo adds to the balance.

Agree to disagree.

Happy to agree to disagree, although I don't think we're disagreeing all that much as I believe we're heading in the right direction also. You could see the nerves on Friday and that nervous energy (or using it up too quickly) really caused them to fade in the first half.

There's no doubt Mateo will add balance if our backrow stocks are used properly and that's something none of us can be sure of until the new season starts.

Would still feel better with a different type of fullback (especially with Mateo on board) and a more dynamic hooker, but once again that's only based on this year with no knowledge as to what's coming in 2011.
 

2big2strong_old

Guest
Serious question here. Why would any coach CHOOSE to rest an 80 minute player? It's absolute nonsense. No coach subs the 80 minute players unless it's an injury or the game is sealed up. That 1 interchange that the coach has wasted on a relatively fresh legged Mannering could be vitally used to sub a very tired Packer, Rapira, Ta'ai or Mateo. Coaches are wanting more players to play for 80 minutes because of the limited interchange. Isaac Luke playing 80 minutes this year has soaked up a whole interchange spot on the bench and it allows Souths to rotate 4 big boppers.

I'm with KTF on this, I can't see any other routine next year other than Mannering 80m, Luck 80m, Feleti 40min, Brown/Ta'ai 40min.

If you look at the successful teams since... for ever, there is a max of 1 workhorse in the squad ala Dallas Johnson. The Storm have always rotated Hoffman, Manu, Blair as their second row (all very balanced attacking players with good defense, none with the name of Ali) Manly have Stewart and Watmough who are both very good attacking footballers, no Ali's there either.... Do any of the perenial achieving teams leak mass amounts of points? No. I can't think of any other NRL team with as many workhorses as us, yet we still get multiple 40 point hidings every year. 1 workhorse is more than enough. Better yet, teach the entire team how to defend better (Which has already been accomplished) and we wouldn't need any workhorses.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
In terms of defence, only St George Illawarra conceded less points than us out of the top 8 sides. You have named Ryan Hoffman as an attacking force for Melbourne, I don't think he's been that effective for a few seasons now and has largely conformed to a more defensive role. The issue is attack. I'm not sure why adding a ball player into the mix is something that you seem to be wary of.
 

RRG_old

Guest
at 1 interchange that the coach has wasted on a relatively fresh legged Mannering

Is this the same mannering that last year suffered from fatigue because of playing too many games in a row and too many minutes in those games?

I think Mannering would be a better player if he was playing 65 minutes.