General Warriors SG Ball General Discussion

mt.wellington

mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
Contributor
Would Ryan Papz have been on the Warriors radar if he had been a local junior? Nope. Would Stacey be big enough to be on the Warriors radar if he was a local junior in the present day? Probably not. That's what needs to change.
Most clubs wont even look at a kid unless they are 6ft. There are some truly gifted kids being overlooked because they are 5ft and change. Conversely there are a lot of average kids getting signed because they are 6ft plus at only 14 years old. Doesn't seem to matter what position either. Height, weight and how fast can they run around the field 4 times. Forget the time limit but I'll try find out.

You'll find anyone getting signed outside those requirements are the rare exception these days...
 

warriorsfan92

TBF its not so much the club but the state of the junior game regionally and nationally. There is no money and the best route is that our young development players actually join secondary school rugby teams so they can at least be part of a monitored, professional and competitive system.

Dont expect that to change anytime soon with the NZRL broke, the NRL not willing to invest and the Warriors owners probably too poor to do what it takes to actually start getting the game to where it should be. We are talking tens of millions. Annually. Who has that sort of money to invest?

As for the Warriors they need to pump money into their own systems by investing a lot more into the development aspect of the game. Fully funded Harold Matthews, SG Ball and Jersey Flegg teams. Start a national tournament that runs for a full season for secondary school teams and pump money into those age groups not captured by the NSW systems (U12-U15s). Bring back the Warriors house for out of town kids and increase it from 5 to 10 players. Invest in top coaches and trainers for all grades which most likely means signing them from across the ditch. They also need to be in it for the long run and allow these kids to develop fully before chucking them straight into the fire and trying to get some value back from them. Again we're talking tens of millions and who has that money to invest?

TL: DR fuckloads of money...
Finally some sense, well said bro. This is absolutely spot on
 
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Viking

Viking

Most clubs wont even look at a kid unless they are 6ft. There are some truly gifted kids being looked over because they are 5ft and change. Conversely there are a lot of average kids getting signed because they are 6ft plus at only 14 years old. Doesn't seem to matter what position either. Height, weight and how fast can they run around the field 4 times. Forget the time limit but I'll try find out.

You'll find anyone getting signed outside those requirements are the rare exception these days...
The academies for the other clubs in town have a wider variety of players on their books than the Warriors do. By the time the Warriors get around to trying to sign play makers once they've caught up in growth to the early developers, they're all gone and the Warriors are left with the Lolohea type players that have flair but can't control a game.

A good example of this was when the future warriors played the tiger cubs back in June. The Warriors were physically superior but the Tigers boys were better footballers. The Tigers had some big Polynesian players but they had a higher percentage of smaller boys that were out and out footballers and could play at a speed that Warriors boys couldn't stay with. The Warriors keep doing the same shit and getting the same shit results.
 
Viking

Viking

TBF its not so much the club but the state of the junior game regionally and nationally. There is no money and the best route is that our young development players actually join secondary school rugby teams so they can at least be part of a monitored, professional and competitive system.

Dont expect that to change anytime soon with the NZRL broke, the NRL not willing to invest and the Warriors owners probably too poor to do what it takes to actually start getting the game to where it should be. We are talking tens of millions. Annually. Who has that sort of money to invest?

As for the Warriors they need to pump money into their own systems by investing a lot more into the development aspect of the game. Fully funded Harold Matthews, SG Ball and Jersey Flegg teams. Start a national tournament that runs for a full season for secondary school teams and pump money into those age groups not captured by the NSW systems (U12-U15s). Bring back the Warriors house for out of town kids and increase it from 5 to 10 players. Invest in top coaches and trainers for all grades which most likely means signing them from across the ditch. They also need to be in it for the long run and allow these kids to develop fully before chucking them straight into the fire and trying to get some value back from them. Again we're talking tens of millions and who has that money to invest?

TL: DR fuckloads of money...
It's almost got to the point where the ARL may as well scrap the clubs u16s to U20s and put all their time and energy into building the schools comps up. Firstly by making it a full season. Market the school comp so it's something worth playing for. And if the Warriors want to benefit from it, send some coaching out to the various schools and find some undiscovered gems in the process. De La Salle showed it could be done. Now's the time for the ARL to strike with Sky cutting their coverage of 1st XV next year.
 
mt.wellington

mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
Contributor
It's almost got to the point where the ARL may as well scrap the clubs u16s to U20s and put all their time and energy into building the schools comps up. Firstly by making it a full season. Market the school comp so it's something worth playing for. Now's the time for the ARL to strike with Sky cutting their coverage of 1st XV next year.
Will never happen. Would be a death knell for any ARL Chairman who is even stupid enough to suggest it. You'd be taking teams away from clubs that are already suffering. No Chairman would survive a vote after it.

Even rugby clubs are trying to put pressure on the NZR over the 1st XV system to get players back to clubs.

Thats why you need an outside force like the Warriors to do it. Their profile as well as their funding would work but it will take a lot of money. You will effectively be going to war with the 1st XV system and schools will want to see some financial or merit incentive for it. Thats assuming you can breakdown those traditional bias and stereotypes against league. Winning a regional or national school league comp doesnt hold the same prestige as the 1st XV. Not even close...
 
Viking

Viking

Will never happen. Would be a death knell for any ARL Chairman who is even stupid enough to suggest it. You'd be taking teams away from clubs that are already suffering. No Chairman would survive a vote after it.

Even rugby clubs are trying to put pressure on the NZR over the 1st XV system to get players back to clubs.

Thats why you need an outside force like the Warriors to do it. Their profile as well as their funding would work but it will take a lot of money. You will effectively be going to war with the 1st XV system and schools will want to see some financial or merit incentive for it. Thats assuming you can breakdown those traditional bias and stereotypes against league. Winning a regional or national school league comp doesnt hold the same prestige as the 1st XV. Not even close...
Yeah, I'm grasping at straws I guess. I've watched the junior international game become decimated in Auckland in the last decade, there's probably 40% of the number of teams in the U16s that there were just 10 years ago, if not less. The u18s and u20s may as well not exist, the big clubs are only doing it to stay compliant for Fox and even that might not be a thing now. Most of the Fox teams wouldn't have been compliant this year.

It's a weird dynamic with school and club rugby in that the club game effectively stops for 5 years then the clubs hope to get their kids back as senior players. One club I know is arguing with the ARU to resurrect the high school grades at club level because a number of schools can't field teams other than their 1st XV and those kids that aren't at 1st XV level, leave the game forever.
 
Five&Last

Five&Last

Most clubs wont even look at a kid unless they are 6ft. There are some truly gifted kids being overlooked because they are 5ft and change. Conversely there are a lot of average kids getting signed because they are 6ft plus at only 14 years old. Doesn't seem to matter what position either. Height, weight and how fast can they run around the field 4 times. Forget the time limit but I'll try find out.

You'll find anyone getting signed outside those requirements are the rare exception these days...
But that’s because majority of players 5ft and change don’t kick on. I get that scouting kids is a crapshoot at the best of times but you have to play the statistics game as well.

Paps would be the among the exceptions to this. He had wraps at a young age and was almost no chance of not being signed at an NRL club. Played Australian schoolboys and also a National touch rep.

Halves is probably where you pay less attention to the height, but it’s a pretty important part of scouting in general
 
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Viking

Viking

But that’s because majority of players 5ft and change don’t kick on. I get that scouting kids is a crapshoot at the best of times but you have to play the statistics game as well.

Paps would be the among the exceptions to this. He had wraps at a young age and was almost no chance of not being signed at an NRL club. Played Australian schoolboys and also a National touch rep.

Halves is probably where you pay less attention to the height, but it’s a pretty important part of scouting in general
The majority of junior talent doesn't kick on period. There's a ton of talent that has nowhere to develop here though.

Backs don't have to be giants IMO, what you get in size, you lose in agility and sometimes speed. Generally, the sweet spot is 6 foot and 90kgs for adult wingers where the power to weight ratio means they're big enough to take the contact and fast enough to beat a man. Two thirds of the Panthers first grade squad are around the 6ft and 90 - 95kgs range except for the props, Yeo and Chrichton. That similarity in body type is no fluke. Sorenson and Martin are less than 10kgs heavier than Cleary and Luai and the two wingers are only 5kgs heavier. There's the odd freak in the NRL like Xavier Coates but they're the exception. I've heard of two 13 year old boys taken in by the Warriors in the last few months, a fullback that's bigger than Dylan Edwards and a prop that's bigger than JFH....yeah, that'll work.
 
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TeetsNRL

TeetsNRL

SG Ball teams generally only produce 2-3 NRL regulars. You can afford to punt on kids with better skill sets who are a bit smaller than their peers at age 16-18.

It’s important the net is cast as wide as possible, the better and broader skill-wise your squad is, the likelier those 2-3 that do hit NRL are going to be of decent quality.

We give the club too many excuses for their crappy development record. If there’s better kids from outside Auckland, then the Warriors need to find a way to make sure they’re playing in SG Ball team.

And as someone mentioned before, they need to be patient with progressing our Jrs through the grades.

Stowers-Smith looks the best prospect from this crop for me, but I don’t want to see him anywhere near first grade until he’s played at the very least full Flegg and NSW Cup seasons.

And I don’t care how dominant say Fukofuka looks at SG Ball level, you don’t Otukolo him and send him out to first grade at 19 to have his lack of experience exposed.

Now Tanielas performances as a 19 year old, who should never had been anywhere near first grade, are held against him and his future prospects.
 
Tony Martin

Tony Martin

I personally think this guy is not the right man for the job. He’s been in this position for a long time , who was the last player from the South Island to play for the warriors.
I recruit for a local rugby club in Christchurch and our colts team would destroy the South Island 18s who finished 2nd in the nationals. Tanner Stowers smith wasn’t even on our radar before he signed for the warriors. At least 3 number 8s better than him in the crusaders competition.
There is some serious untapped talent in the sth island and I’m sure the lower nth island. When the warriors trialled here the 52 players in the crusaders under 18s squad weren’t allowed to trial. We need to get someone around the country and not just Auckland. This method obviously isn’t working. I’m not Auckland bashing either as there’s some serious talent up there.
Jazz Tevaga?
The warriors just don’t have the same pulling power in the South Island. Dallas McLeod turned down a 100k contract to stay with the crusaders for 5k. There is just no way anyone is turning down a crusaders contract for the warriors.
In Auckland I feel like we do Ok with identifying talent, the problem is, if they are any good the blues and the chiefs will swoop in. If there is a tug of war between a player 10 times out of 10 we will lose that. I feel like a well known or semi well known ex all black who knows what he is looking for wouldn’t be a bad shout for a scout
 
Brother Faisal

Brother Faisal

TBF its not so much the club but the state of the junior game regionally and nationally. There is no money and the best route is that our young development players actually join secondary school rugby teams so they can at least be part of a monitored, professional and competitive system.

Dont expect that to change anytime soon with the NZRL broke, the NRL not willing to invest and the Warriors owners probably too poor to do what it takes to actually start getting the game to where it should be. We are talking tens of millions. Annually. Who has that sort of money to invest?

As for the Warriors they need to pump money into their own systems by investing a lot more into the development aspect of the game. Fully funded Harold Matthews, SG Ball and Jersey Flegg teams. Start a national tournament that runs for a full season for secondary school teams and pump money into those age groups not captured by the NSW systems (U12-U15s). Bring back the Warriors house for out of town kids and increase it from 5 to 10 players. Invest in top coaches and trainers for all grades which most likely means signing them from across the ditch. They also need to be in it for the long run and allow these kids to develop fully before chucking them straight into the fire and trying to get some value back from them. Again we're talking tens of millions and who has that money to invest?

TL: DR fuckloads of money...
Nailed it completely.
 
Brother Faisal

Brother Faisal

Will never happen. Would be a death knell for any ARL Chairman who is even stupid enough to suggest it. You'd be taking teams away from clubs that are already suffering. No Chairman would survive a vote after it.

Even rugby clubs are trying to put pressure on the NZR over the 1st XV system to get players back to clubs.

Thats why you need an outside force like the Warriors to do it. Their profile as well as their funding would work but it will take a lot of money. You will effectively be going to war with the 1st XV system and schools will want to see some financial or merit incentive for it. Thats assuming you can breakdown those traditional bias and stereotypes against league. Winning a regional or national school league comp doesnt hold the same prestige as the 1st XV. Not even close...
Firstly do you believe the warriors have the capital to fund something this big? Would you limit it to Auckland or national? Secondly is it worth the cost to the club and would it achieve the desired result of a higher quality footy player through the warriors systems? Are we talking say 10 years investment before we see considerable results or something more like 20 years?
 
mt.wellington

mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
Contributor
Jazz Tevaga?
The warriors just don’t have the same pulling power in the South Island. Dallas McLeod turned down a 100k contract to stay with the crusaders for 5k. There is just no way anyone is turning down a crusaders contract for the warriors.
In Auckland I feel like we do Ok with identifying talent, the problem is, if they are any good the blues and the chiefs will swoop in. If there is a tug of war between a player 10 times out of 10 we will lose that. I feel like a well known or semi well known ex all black who knows what he is looking for wouldn’t be a bad shout for a scout
Jazz Tevaga wasnt scouted at all. He came up off his own back and entered the open trial. He scouted himself lol!

For me the problem is the best are being scouted before they can even enter Warriors systems. A lot of that has been addressed with the club signing 14 year olds but the fact still remains we have no way of adequately developing them in any real competitive environment at all. We have no Harold Matthews team and the quality of the junior rugby league system across the vast majority of NZ is just not good enough.

In Auckland you'll find most age grades are continually dominated by 1 or 2 super teams where parents drive from all over Auckland to sign their children up to the few good coaches out there. Brent Webb's U15 team this season at Ellerslie is an example of that. Kids are catching the train from Papakura after school to make training.

Vast majority of parents who are serious about getting their kids the best start know they have to move to Australia. For the best kids clubs will happily move them over and find them all jobs through their sponsors and affiliates.

I feel like most of the kids we sign are from parents who arent smart enough to know any better or kids who are too scared to leave the nest. That last bit is probably harsh but I genuinely dont see how any parent can justify signing their kids to the Warriors and being serious about seeing them progress as far as their Aussie counterparts.

As I've posted before one of the Warriors recruitment staff told me that they encourage their juniors to play in the secondary school rugby teams cause of the level of professionalism in those systems. You are talking about kids that have no problem getting scholarships at some of the best schools in Auckland.

Developing kids in the rugby union system is a ridiculous way of preparing rugby league...
 
TeetsNRL

TeetsNRL

Crusaders.
These 52 kids gets sold the dream of making the crusaders. In reality 10 of them will get academy spots for next year and 2 or 3 will end up playing super rugby in the future.
The other 42 will play club rugby in chch or Nelson. These 42 are the ones the warriors need to target.

The hard thing with that is if kids are willing to let the Crusaders (I know elite schools that do it too) dictate those conditions to them, and kids are putting everything into that one rugby basket, then they’re severely limiting their own chances.

It’s a big ask to offer someone a contract in a sport they’ve likely never played, even Mannering had to actually play some league trials before he got picked up (if I recall his book correctly).

The best way to make the NRL is still to actually play league. Southern Scorpions presumably run open trials like everyone else, if these guys aren’t going to show up what can you do?

We could sign them after High School/1st XV but it’s a big ask to go straight from never played league to a Jersey Flegg team. It happens, but you wouldn’t want to have too many of those guys in your Flegg team.
 
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mt.wellington

mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
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Firstly do you believe the warriors have the capital to fund something this big? Would you limit it to Auckland or national? Secondly is it worth the cost to the club and would it achieve the desired result of a higher quality footy player through the warriors systems? Are we talking say 10 years investment before we see considerable results or something more like 20 years?
No way in hell the Warriors have the capital and no way in hell would the Robinson family allow Mark to fund it either. We are talking about $20-30 million just to get it started and done properly. Real problem is that the club would have to dig into its pockets every year to keep it afloat as they have no revenue streams outside of its bread and butter league commitments...
 
Fonzie

Fonzie

No way in hell the Warriors have the capital and no way in hell would the Robinson family allow Mark to fund it either. We are talking about $20-30 million just to get it started and done properly. Real problem is that the club would have to dig into its pockets every year to keep it afloat as they have no revenue streams outside of its bread and butter league commitments...
Sounds like the only way forward is a second nrl team creating 2x Matts- Ball-Flegg-Cup pathways in NZ
 
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TeetsNRL

TeetsNRL

Jazz Tevaga wasnt scouted at all. He came up off his own back and entered the open trial. He scouted himself lol!

Backing up my other post.

Waikato has teams in the Warriors Shaun Johnson Shield and Dean Bell cup comps, open trials.

There’s open trials for the teams that go to the NZRL National Youth tourney thats attended by multiple NRL scouts every year.

You’d think every kid with footy talent would show up to give themselves as wide a shot as possible at pro-footy.

But just the same League kids show up. We’ve an abundance of rugby talent that’s going to peak at 1st XV or Chiefs development level who still don’t try out.

Now you can say the trials should be better advertised, I’d agree, but opportunity is being presented and the rugby kids don’t take it for whatever reasons.
 
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mt.wellington

mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
Contributor
We could sign them after High School/1st XV but it’s a big ask to go straight from never played league to a Jersey Flegg team. It happens, but you wouldn’t want to have too many of those guys in your Flegg team.
If you aren't in a system (NRL, Super Rugby) by age 18 you have no chance of being looked at because the fact is no one makes it to NRL from that age. I believe its only happened twice in the last decade.

100 points each if you can name both players...
 
mt.wellington

mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
Contributor
Sounds like the only way forward is a second nrl team creating 2x Matts- Ball-Flegg-Cup pathways in NZ
If the Warriors cant afford it how the hell is a team from Wellington or Christchurch going to do it lol? And what do they do? Just play each other every week?

There are 15 teams in the Harold Matthews competition. The very best U16 from the Bulldogs play the very best U16s from the Raiders. Then the week after they play the very best U16 from the Roosters and so on so forth with the Panthers, Eels, Roosters, Rabbitohs etc.

We dont have that level of intense competition week in and week out here in NZ even with another team.

The easiest thing the Warriors can do is send a team to the play in the Harold Matthews Cup but they may need some help funding it as NSWRL clubs have a history of not agreeing to pay for away flights and accomodation to NZ or even having the NSWRL pay for us to travel and stay over there.

Money, money, money...
 

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