General Warriors Halves 2010 onwards

garyhobson_old

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Ive only ever seen Nathan Fien play 3 good games, that was the last 3 games of the WC. It was the first time he actually played good consistant football too. Perhaps maybe its because hes not changing positons every week, he wasnt moved around from hooker, bench, halfback to five eight. Like his career at the Warriors has been so far.

Take nothing away from Nathan Fien, he was the man in the WC. But he was also playing alongside a very good five eight - Benji Marshall.

The ideal halves combo is a halfback - good organiser, leader, vision, very good kicking game. Five eight - skillful, takes on the line, puts D in 2 minds. Which is why i liked the Scott Prince/Benji Marshall halves combo, best ive seen.

If you want to win the premiership your halfback has to be consistant, be the best player on park in the GF.
 

Kid-Dynamite_old

Guest
Shaun johnson reminds me of a Benji type player though. He comes from a touch background, and loves to dance with ball in hand.

Remember Benji won a premiership in '05 when he was very young, we just need to a more mature halves partner for Shaun Johnson like ScottPrince was for Benji.

And I would back Nathan Fien to do this job, given the opportunity to week in and week out play in the halves!
 

Spence_old

Guest
Ive only ever seen Nathan Fien play 3 good games, that was the last 3 games of the WC. It was the first time he actually played good consistant football too. Perhaps maybe its because hes not changing positons every week, he wasnt moved around from hooker, bench, halfback to five eight. Like his career at the Warriors has been so far.

Take nothing away from Nathan Fien, he was the man in the WC. But he was also playing alongside a very good five eight - Benji Marshall.

The ideal halves combo is a halfback - good organiser, leader, vision, very good kicking game. Five eight - skillful, takes on the line, puts D in 2 minds. Which is why i liked the Scott Prince/Benji Marshall halves combo, best ive seen.

If you want to win the premiership your halfback has to be consistant, be the best player on park in the GF.

Well yes and no. He did play Hooker/Halfback for the first 3 games.
 

ToiletDuck_old

Guest
Has anyone else been keeping tabs on Shaun Johnson and his D? I've only seen 2 games of his this season and quite frankly I thought he was mediocre/shit...nowhere near NRL standard.
 

Kid-Dynamite_old

Guest
Has anyone else been keeping tabs on Shaun Johnson and his D? I've only seen 2 games of his this season and quite frankly I thought he was mediocre/shit...nowhere near NRL standard.

He's 18, I wouldn't expect his defence to be NRL standard. It's something i'm sure he'll work on, and something i'm sure will improve, through growth, and increased muscular strength. He's still just a kid at 18

It's the same with Ben Barba, and Shannon Walker
 

ToiletDuck_old

Guest
He's 18, I wouldn't expect his defence to be NRL standard. It's something i'm sure he'll work on, and something i'm sure will improve, through growth, and increased muscular strength. He's still just a kid at 18

It's the same with Ben Barba, and Shannon Walker

Yeah, I have no doubt he'll be working hard on it...and it doesn't help coming from a touch background...I just think it's another reason (and a fairly good one) that he should stay well away from the NRL for the next season or 2.
 

Spence_old

Guest
Thankfully we have him wrapped up for 3 more seasons (or is it 3 including this one?), so no need to rush him in.
 

KeepingTheFaith_old

Guest
He's 18, I wouldn't expect his defence to be NRL standard. It's something i'm sure he'll work on, and something i'm sure will improve, through growth, and increased muscular strength. He's still just a kid at 18

It's the same with Ben Barba, and Shannon Walker

Ben Barba and Shannon Walker will put themselves in a position to make tackles though. Johnson refuses to even attempt tackling unless someone else is already in there or a player runs straight at him. Even then it's a very weak attempt at best.

The kid's put on 18kgs in 18 months and still has some weight to add. His body is adjusting and with time hopefully he'll gain the confidence to put his body on the line. Until that changes though it would be like defending with 12 people if he were in first grade. 2 years in Toyota Cup will do him good and I think right now the adjustment from touch to tackle and the adjustment in weight is more mental than physical.
 

ToiletDuck_old

Guest
Ben Barba and Shannon Walker will put themselves in a position to make tackles though. Johnson refuses to even attempt tackling unless someone else is already in there or a player runs straight at him. Even then it's a very weak attempt at best.

The kid's put on 18kgs in 18 months and still has some weight to add. His body is adjusting and with time hopefully he'll gain the confidence to put his body on the line. Until that changes though it would be like defending with 12 people if he were in first grade. 2 years in Toyota Cup will do him good and I think right now the adjustment from touch to tackle and the adjustment in weight is more mental than physical.

It's also damn harder to learn to tackle the older you get....I have no idea as to the full extent of his development in league/union, but it looks to me as though he really is just learning.
 

KeepingTheFaith_old

Guest
It's also damn harder to learn to tackle the older you get....I have no idea as to the full extent of his development in league/union, but it looks to me as though he really is just learning.

He does give the impression that he was plucked straight from touch and brought to league without any previous background. Very reluctant to firstly get involved and then when he has to get involved use his shoulder. Alot of weak arm tackles from a touch player trying to come to grasp with league imo. I'm sure the coaching staff realise this though and as his body continues to develop they'll push him harder and gradually drill it into him that even if he doesn't complete the tackle at the very least he needs to put his body on the line.
 

Iafeta_old

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According to wikpedia it says Michael Monoghan is 28 years old, born in 1980.

Get rid of players like Aidan Kirk we are half a chance of signing good players with more money in the cap.

And this is where you are incorrect. You claim blokes like Kirk are the impediment to getting superstars. How further from the truth you could be. All clubs are restrained by a salary cap. Journeymen players like Aidan Kirk come at fairly cheap rates, freeing up money for other players. If Kirk for instance is on $100,000, it's not going to be entirely easy of finding a player who can play reasonable in injury crises maybe 10 games per year, sometimes in the finals, for less than that.

The issue is not the players themselves, its the derivative of the value created by the player. Value is not just expected performance, it's a correlation of performance and input cost. If the cost is low, and the performance betters the expectation, you are creating value to find room under the cap.

The Warriors have done a successful job over the years at times with the likes of George Gatis, Todd Byrne, Jason Death, Robbie Mears, flying in under the radar on low rates of pay and performing well above what should be expected of them given their status on the pay scale in the team. One of the common myths though is that they're the only club who has done it, every club is looking out for the solid contributor on and off the field who won't cost an arm and a leg so they can afford 2-3 superstars in their roster.
 

commonsense_old

Guest
And this is where you are incorrect. You claim blokes like Kirk are the impediment to getting superstars. How further from the truth you could be. All clubs are restrained by a salary cap. Journeymen players like Aidan Kirk come at fairly cheap rates, freeing up money for other players. If Kirk for instance is on $100,000, it's not going to be entirely easy of finding a player who can play reasonable in injury crises maybe 10 games per year, sometimes in the finals, for less than that.

The issue is not the players themselves, its the derivative of the value created by the player. Value is not just expected performance, it's a correlation of performance and input cost. If the cost is low, and the performance betters the expectation, you are creating value to find room under the cap.

The Warriors have done a successful job over the years at times with the likes of George Gatis, Todd Byrne, Jason Death, Robbie Mears, flying in under the radar on low rates of pay and performing well above what should be expected of them given their status on the pay scale in the team. One of the common myths though is that they're the only club who has done it, every club is looking out for the solid contributor on and off the field who won't cost an arm and a leg so they can afford 2-3 superstars in their roster.

great insight.

i think the warriors have made great pick ups in the past. even in the current squad. look and henderson and luck. came in to the team as nobodies and now are seasoned vets. but with all the great recruits there have been some bombs. guys like rovelli (who prob wasnt on much but i wouldnt want him for free), witt, shortland etc.

but bombs can include guys that were overvalued. ppl are going to hate me but i feel that brent tate was a bomb. $450K a year is a lot for an outside back. dont get me wrong, tate is an awesome player who is a current origin and international rep, but that price tag is pretty hefty. another bomb i feel is lilyman. for a team who has never had a problem with depth in the forwards it was pretty silly recruiting a guy who is a similar mould of a few players we have on the current roster.

at the end of the day tho i think the warriors overall have done a pretty good job with recruitment.

anyway back to the point about the warriors halves 2010 onwards. shaun johnson... the player who has superstar written all over him is still a few years raw. i dont see him playing first grade until 2012 or 2011 (the earliest).
so our current stock of halves are moon, jones, fien, hohaia, john, foran, heremaia.

moon... seems to be earmarked as the standoff of the near future for us.

hohaia... with his amazing running game, lance doesnt have the best boot on him. his best position for us will be utility on the bench and given that lance is such a good team player i dont see it being a problem for him next season.

jones... strong chance we wont see him

fien... "...." and i honestly dont see this guy as a solid half anyway. good hooker tho

john and foran... it is really up to these guys. btw them for the coveted no7. i dunno about anyone else but i feel funny about leaving that position btw these 2 young kids. neither have them have been impressive. it's up to them to give it their all this season in the nswpl to show ppl wat they can do.
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
And this is where you are incorrect. You claim blokes like Kirk are the impediment to getting superstars. How further from the truth you could be. All clubs are restrained by a salary cap. Journeymen players like Aidan Kirk come at fairly cheap rates, freeing up money for other players. If Kirk for instance is on $100,000, it's not going to be entirely easy of finding a player who can play reasonable in injury crises maybe 10 games per year, sometimes in the finals, for less than that.

The issue is not the players themselves, its the derivative of the value created by the player. Value is not just expected performance, it's a correlation of performance and input cost. If the cost is low, and the performance betters the expectation, you are creating value to find room under the cap.

The Warriors have done a successful job over the years at times with the likes of George Gatis, Todd Byrne, Jason Death, Robbie Mears, flying in under the radar on low rates of pay and performing well above what should be expected of them given their status on the pay scale in the team. One of the common myths though is that they're the only club who has done it, every club is looking out for the solid contributor on and off the field who won't cost an arm and a leg so they can afford 2-3 superstars in their roster.

Interesting how you went from describing Aidan Kirk a few weeks ago to "solid" to now reasonable. Reasonable is not good enough in the nrl, if we are serious about winning a primership one day, reasonable wont cut it.

In thoery your right about value. But the thing is players such as Aidan Kirk are not good value. They might peform at best to their price tag, but never above it, he has not exceeded expectations at all. Can you honestly say he has exceeded expectations since he first signed to the club???

I can also say that about half a dozen of these blokes the Warriors have recruited over the years. Yes there are a few exceptions such as a Jason Death. This season has been good though.

Players like him are killing the salary cap, if you get a dozen of these sort of players all the pennys add up in the end. We might spend 500k for about 4 of these players, whereas with 500k we could buy a really awesome halfback or we could just buy 2 good promising players. Like we have done in the past with PJ Marsh, Brent Webb, Richard Villisanti, all making an imediate impact when they first came to the club. I rather go for a youth policy to fall back on if injuries occur, instead of buying these "journeymen" type players.

I do agree with you that we need solid contributors at the club who wont cost an arm and a leg. But Aidan Kirk, Michael Crockett, Ryan Shortland and Tony Martin are not the answer. No more of these sort of players. Dead end careers in the big time. Josh Morris is one who fits into that category of solid contributors. Danny Wicks even, players with a bit of potential in them, but no where near superstar status. No bodys at the start, but willing to work hard, contribute, and have the benifit in playing with good players in a good side.
 
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DanKokoro_old

Guest
The issue is not the players themselves, its the derivative of the value created by the player. Value is not just expected performance, it's a correlation of performance and input cost. If the cost is low, and the performance betters the expectation, you are creating value to find room under the cap.

Just because they're low cost players doesn't mean they're any more likely to exceed expectations.. Aids would be sitting very low on my performance to input cost correlation chart.. somewhere in the negative department
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
yeah thats just taking a negative approach, buying a player because hes cheap, and hoping that he would exceed expectations, so therefore he becomes value for money, value for the club. How often would that actually happen anyway?
 

Viking_old

Guest
Interesting how you went from describing Aidan Kirk a few weeks ago to "solid" to now reasonable. Reasonable is not good enough in the nrl, if we are serious about winning a primership one day, reasonable wont cut it.

In thoery your right about value. But the thing is players such as Aidan Kirk are not good value. They might peform at best to their price tag, but never above it, he has not exceeded expectations at all. Can you honestly say he has exceeded expectations since he first signed to the club???

I can also say that about half a dozen of these blokes the Warriors have recruited over the years. Yes there are a few exceptions such as a Jason Death. This season has been good though.

Players like him are killing the salary cap, if you get a dozen of these sort of players all the pennys add up in the end. We might spend 500k for about 4 of these players, whereas with 500k we could buy a really awesome halfback or we could just buy 2 good promising players. Like we have done in the past with PJ Marsh, Brent Webb, Richard Villisanti, all making an imediate impact when they first came to the club. I rather go for a youth policy to fall back on if injuries occur, instead of buying these "journeymen" type players.

I do agree with you that we need solid contributors at the club who wont cost an arm and a leg. But Aidan Kirk, Michael Crockett, Ryan Shortland and Tony Martin are not the answer. No more of these sort of players. Dead end careers in the big time. Josh Morris is one who fits into that category of solid contributors. Danny Wicks even, players with a bit of potential in them, but no where near superstar status. No bodys at the start, but willing to work hard, contribute, and have the benifit in playing with good players in a good side.

But they're contracted players. Kirk had big wraps on him before coming to the Warriors and was reportedly the standout player for the Roosters PL team that lost to Parramatta in th GF 3 years ago. The Warriors bought him on the strength of his performances in PL, there were no U20s then so they took an educated guess. He was injured in his first year here and now has clawed his way into 1st grade. I don't know that they should resign him but this management declared that they will honour contracts and I'd be disappointed if they didn't honour his regardless of whether he plays 1st grade or not.

Shortland was highly regarded by Melbourne fans who felt he'd be next cab off the rank for 1st grade out of their junior ranks. One of his knee ligaments was hanging on by a thread and was always going to need reconstructing so he was more of a gamble than Kirk but it was Kirk that got a long term injury, that's footy. Shortland would've been viewed with the same potential as Ropati at the same age, Jerome kicked on and Ryan didn't, that's also footy. The Warriors have to take a chance with young unproven players, injury could strike at any time or they might not step up.

Now that the Toyota cup is in full swing, the Warriors can get a better idea about which local juniors will kick on but there will always be a place for low cost older utilities regardless of the salary cap. If the cap went up by a million it would just get soaked up by higher prices for stars. There are also players who won't shine in the Toyota cup but will be much better suited to 1st grade than some of the U20s superstars because they're mentally tougher and adapt better to the physical demands and weekly grind of top level footy.

You think that the Warriors should stick Johnson in 1st grade ahead of Kirk and co, this is the player that missed 6 tackles in the weekend against players his own age? He played U18s for Harbour last year and used to stand to one side against attackers then try to run that player down from behind, his front on defence is a joke. At least Sandow and Barba have a go. His attack will shine in the U20s because it's a loose brand of football, hence all the high scores in most games but some players just HATE defending, he's one of them. You can't put it entirely down to size either, Langer and Toovey were around the high 60s or low 70s in first grade and weren't found wanting like Johnson. It must be said that he hasn't been playing behind a dominant forward pack though.

If Tony Iro says they're not ready then they're NOT ready.

Iafeta knows what he's talking about.
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
Shortland highly regarded by melbourne fans? So what?? He obviously wasnt highly regarded by Craig Bellemy - premiership winning coach/current nsw state of orgin coach. Ryan Shortland played like 4 games in 5 seasons at the Storm. Junk. What does that say about him? Stupid decison to sign him by the Warriors. Im sure they will admit that themselves, after not resigning the guy after 1 season where he played 3 or 4 games, if that.

As for Aidan Kirk, yes his first season at the warriors he was injuried, second season he played 10 games or so, pretty average, enough to know that he wasnt worth re signing, but they still signed him for 1 more season, this season 09, he still hasnt shown anything to show that he has a long term future in the nrl.

I dont think Shaun Johnson should be our first choice half, but he should be given a few games in the next few seasons ahead, so in 2 years time hes ready to play a full season of nrl at five eight or halfback.
 
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Spence_old

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Shortland highly regarded by melbourne fans? So what?? He obviously wasnt highly regarded by Craig Bellemy - premiership winning coach/current nsw state of orgin coach. Ryan Shortland played like 4 games in 5 seasons at the Storm. Junk. What does that say about him? Stupid decison to sign him by the Warriors. Im sure they will admit that themselves, after not resigning the guy after 1 season where he played 3 or 4 games, if that.-

As for Aidan Kirk, yes his first season at the warriors he was injuried, second season he played 10 games or so, pretty average, enough to know that he wasnt worth re signing, but they still signed him for 1 more season, this season 09, he still hasnt shown anything to show that he has a long term future in the nrl.

I dont think Shaun Johnson should be our first choice half, but he should be given a few games in the next few seasons ahead, so in 2 years time hes ready to play a full season of nrl at five eight or halfback.

Actually he was there for 2 seasons, '06/'07. He played debuted in round 2 of '07, then was injured for the rest of the year. The Warriors signed him on potential, which was obviously picked up by Bellamy, as he played him in round 2. If I was a coach I wouldn't throw in a new player one game into the comp if I didn't think he could deliver.

The Warriors picked him up, unsure whether he would be back to his best post-injury. It turns out that he wasn't, but if it payed off, it would have been a great gamble.