ToiletDuck

Dr Faggot
Contributor
Mar 30, 2012
3,369
Auckland
Why are people so grossly offended by this thread, obviously the title is a bit of a joke, but everyone’s quite happy to ream a player, coach or official when people think they might have made a bad call.

Why are medico’s out of bounds?

Actually genuinely interested to know.

Is it just that no one knows what they're talking about? If that was the criteria, precious little would get posted around here.

Its reasonable to speculate why the team seem to be over represented in season ending knee injuries going back years now.

Even if all its just bad luck.


The medico's are out of bounds because unlike a lot of other aspects of the club, we have almost ZERO information re the medical staff, the treatment, etc etc. It's far more involved than the OP suggests. This isn't the same as questioning Cappy's selections, or use of the bench, or whatever else we tend to harp on about. Those things we can actually see, and a lot of the reasoning is actually made available to us via interviews, inside word etc. This is the exact opposite of what happens regarding players' injuries, treatments, prognosis etc. Firstly because it's a gross violation of doctor-patient relationship and none of our business, secondly because all clubs keep the details of injuries to their players closely guarded in the interests of keeping the opposition guessing. We get told the bare bones of injuries, ie. ACL rupture round 7, having surgery, season over - and then perhaps a few feel good interviews about how well the rehab is going. You're crazy if you think it is all just that simple.

Next point, the OP questions Doc Mayhew, or 'medical staff'. Who here is aware of how many medical staff we have, what are their roles? Who decides if a player is fit to play? We have a club doctor, physiotherapists, masseuses, strength and conditioning coaches, and likely a bunch of sports scientists who give their input regarding sports related physiology, nutrition, etc etc. Then you have the orthopaedic surgeons who actually do the respective operations and will be heavily involved in their rehab in terms of what they're able to do and when. This is why it's such a stupid thing to question, noone even knows who they're asking or what they're asking! It'd be like me barging into the beehive in Wellington and demanding to talk to John Key about the exchange rate, the mere fact that I'd asked such a stupid question only serves to cement how little I know about what I'm even asking.

And I would say that lack of knowledge definitely contributes to the overall lack of respectability of the original question. What do you mean by knee injuries anyway? Because the knee is a complex joint with multiple possible sites of injury. Are you referring to anterior cruciate ligaments, posterior cruciates, medial and lateral collateral ligaments, meniscus injuries, patella or patella tendon injuries, femur or tibial injuries, cartilage problems? All these are common knee complaints/injuries and they can all happen in many different ways.

Lastly, is the team over represented in terms of knee injuries? Or any injuries? That sounds horrifically anecdotal, because those sort of stats would take a long time to collate and there are a lot of clubs that have a lot of injuries year after year. Most fans would consider their own clubs unlucky injury wise, you know why? Because they pay sweet fuck all attention to what's going on elsewhere. If someone came to me and said that over the past 10 years the Warriors have a 50% higher rate of anterior cruciate rupture compared with every other club accounting for the wider squad, reserve grade, and NYC then I would say fine, let's ask why on earth that is. Noone even knows who or what they're asking, or to be more clear, they know so little they don't know who or what to ask. Hence drawing tenuous links between the only prominent medical name at the club and anecdotal feelings about injuries over an undefined period of time is amateur hour at it's best.
 

mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
Jun 21, 2012
22,810
Mt. Wellington, Auckland
128463-simple-red-square-icon-arrows-hand-clear-pointer-up.png
What he said. And he's a legit Doctor.

Should we change that stupid title. Warriors Sports Medicine? All things including staff in general...
 

Stylez Davis

1st Grade Fringe
The medico's are out of bounds because unlike a lot of other aspects of the club, we have almost ZERO information re the medical staff, the treatment, etc etc. It's far more involved than the OP suggests. This isn't the same as questioning Cappy's selections, or use of the bench, or whatever else we tend to harp on about. Those things we can actually see, and a lot of the reasoning is actually made available to us via interviews, inside word etc. This is the exact opposite of what happens regarding players' injuries, treatments, prognosis etc. Firstly because it's a gross violation of doctor-patient relationship and none of our business, secondly because all clubs keep the details of injuries to their players closely guarded in the interests of keeping the opposition guessing. We get told the bare bones of injuries, ie. ACL rupture round 7, having surgery, season over - and then perhaps a few feel good interviews about how well the rehab is going. You're crazy if you think it is all just that simple.

Next point, the OP questions Doc Mayhew, or 'medical staff'. Who here is aware of how many medical staff we have, what are their roles? Who decides if a player is fit to play? We have a club doctor, physiotherapists, masseuses, strength and conditioning coaches, and likely a bunch of sports scientists who give their input regarding sports related physiology, nutrition, etc etc. Then you have the orthopaedic surgeons who actually do the respective operations and will be heavily involved in their rehab in terms of what they're able to do and when. This is why it's such a stupid thing to question, noone even knows who they're asking or what they're asking! It'd be like me barging into the beehive in Wellington and demanding to talk to John Key about the exchange rate, the mere fact that I'd asked such a stupid question only serves to cement how little I know about what I'm even asking.

And I would say that lack of knowledge definitely contributes to the overall lack of respectability of the original question. What do you mean by knee injuries anyway? Because the knee is a complex joint with multiple possible sites of injury. Are you referring to anterior cruciate ligaments, posterior cruciates, medial and lateral collateral ligaments, meniscus injuries, patella or patella tendon injuries, femur or tibial injuries, cartilage problems? All these are common knee complaints/injuries and they can all happen in many different ways.

Lastly, is the team over represented in terms of knee injuries? Or any injuries? That sounds horrifically anecdotal, because those sort of stats would take a long time to collate and there are a lot of clubs that have a lot of injuries year after year. Most fans would consider their own clubs unlucky injury wise, you know why? Because they pay sweet fuck all attention to what's going on elsewhere. If someone came to me and said that over the past 10 years the Warriors have a 50% higher rate of anterior cruciate rupture compared with every other club accounting for the wider squad, reserve grade, and NYC then I would say fine, let's ask why on earth that is. Noone even knows who or what they're asking, or to be more clear, they know so little they don't know who or what to ask. Hence drawing tenuous links between the only prominent medical name at the club and anecdotal feelings about injuries over an undefined period of time is amateur hour at it's best.
I didn't realize we had professional posters on here lol
But you're right I was drawing tenuous links based on anecdotal feelings and felt like making a thread about it, ill conceived as it is, because I thought that's what fourums were for, my mistake
 

ToiletDuck

Dr Faggot
Contributor
Mar 30, 2012
3,369
Auckland
I didn't realize we had professional posters on here lol
But you're right I was drawing tenuous links based on anecdotal feelings and felt like making a thread about it, ill conceived as it is, because I thought that's what fourums were for, my mistake

Sorry if it comes across as harsh, and obviously I'm talking from a personal perspective here also. Wasn't meant to come across as a personal attack on you at all, it's just an area that can be quite emotive for a lot of people which often obscures or often totally overrides the actual facts. I don't mind anyone ever asking questions, as we do regarding a lot of how the club is run. But this is shooting int the dark at best.
 

Iafetas Kickstand Wang

1st Grade Fringe
Jun 21, 2012
2,098
There is nothing there that the Warriors won't already be doing, except for the balance board. Blokes the size of those guys don't get to that size without a lot of those exercises regularly - particularly the big 3, squats, chest press, dead lifts. Every bodybuilder worth his salt would do a lot of those, they work more muscles than most others (though there's a lot to be gained from the good old fashioned push ups and burpees as well). The resistance band training they would do to increase their explosiveness - let me say the resistance band is a tough mutha of a thing to do. I've done sand dunes, cross fit boot camps and the like , and my least enjoyable one is resistance band running. You have to generate a lot of blood and oxygen flow to your legs to get good outcomes.
 

mrblonde

Warriors 1st Grader
Apr 14, 2012
4,131
Auckland
Is it the knee jerk that leads to ACL tears?

A disasterous weekend for nzwarriors.com as no less than 6 forummers did their ACLs after what appears to be knee jerks. They were all posting in the "Sack Coach Cappy" thread at about 5:30PM on Tuesday, reacting to the team named by indeed Coach Cappy as they call him. We believe Jonathan Wright to be the culprit in all 6 cases and expect him to be facing the nzwarriors.com judiciary very soon.

Is that when they are on a short plank thats on a ball???

I think it's a half-ball. There's one at the gym I go to and I remember there was footage of Wade McKinnon using one in late 2008 when he was on the verge of coming back from his knee reconstruction.
 

Iafetas Kickstand Wang

1st Grade Fringe
Jun 21, 2012
2,098
Is that when they are on a short plank thats on a ball???

Its in the link above mate, but TBH, I've never personally seen it. I understand the theory, and yeah, you could do it on a ball although that would be stupendously tough. The idea is that the board basically is moving, and because you have to counter act the movement it creates balance - and generally that will also strengthen your tendons and ligaments. I go to the gym where the Mounties NSW Cup team train,and I've never seen them do that - I'm sure they do outside sessions that I don't see, but I've never seen it. Physiologically it makes sense, but I personally prefer the squat to strengthen the tendons and ligaments because you seriously have to manoeuvre a series of muscles in high coordination to be able to squat a high weight with the right technique. I'm certainly no expert at it, its a real challenge and I have to psyche myself up to push higher weights on it.
 

mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
Jun 21, 2012
22,810
Mt. Wellington, Auckland
Its in the link above mate, but TBH, I've never personally seen it. I understand the theory, and yeah, you could do it on a ball although that would be stupendously tough. The idea is that the board basically is moving, and because you have to counter act the movement it creates balance - and generally that will also strengthen your tendons and ligaments. I go to the gym where the Mounties NSW Cup team train,and I've never seen them do that - I'm sure they do outside sessions that I don't see, but I've never seen it. Physiologically it makes sense, but I personally prefer the squat to strengthen the tendons and ligaments because you seriously have to manoeuvre a series of muscles in high coordination to be able to squat a high weight with the right technique. I'm certainly no expert at it, its a real challenge and I have to psyche myself up to push higher weights on it.
The Warriors use it. Only see the rehab boys using it though. Sam Tomkins was the last one I saw using it...
 

Iafetas Kickstand Wang

1st Grade Fringe
Jun 21, 2012
2,098
It'd make sense. I'm not sure you really need it in a growth and prevention regime, as the big 3 and various others will naturally build the tendons and ligaments anyhow. Part of the challenge of coming back from an injury like that is stability and balance, and confidence in this, it'd be quite a challenge I'd imagine so it'd be good preparation.
 

Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
23,994
-
The medico's are out of bounds because unlike a lot of other aspects of the club, we have almost ZERO information re the medical staff, the treatment, etc etc. It's far more involved than the OP suggests. This isn't the same as questioning Cappy's selections, or use of the bench, or whatever else we tend to harp on about. Those things we can actually see, and a lot of the reasoning is actually made available to us via interviews, inside word etc. This is the exact opposite of what happens regarding players' injuries, treatments, prognosis etc. Firstly because it's a gross violation of doctor-patient relationship and none of our business, secondly because all clubs keep the details of injuries to their players closely guarded in the interests of keeping the opposition guessing. We get told the bare bones of injuries, ie. ACL rupture round 7, having surgery, season over - and then perhaps a few feel good interviews about how well the rehab is going. You're crazy if you think it is all just that simple.

Next point, the OP questions Doc Mayhew, or 'medical staff'. Who here is aware of how many medical staff we have, what are their roles? Who decides if a player is fit to play? We have a club doctor, physiotherapists, masseuses, strength and conditioning coaches, and likely a bunch of sports scientists who give their input regarding sports related physiology, nutrition, etc etc. Then you have the orthopaedic surgeons who actually do the respective operations and will be heavily involved in their rehab in terms of what they're able to do and when. This is why it's such a stupid thing to question, noone even knows who they're asking or what they're asking! It'd be like me barging into the beehive in Wellington and demanding to talk to John Key about the exchange rate, the mere fact that I'd asked such a stupid question only serves to cement how little I know about what I'm even asking.

And I would say that lack of knowledge definitely contributes to the overall lack of respectability of the original question. What do you mean by knee injuries anyway? Because the knee is a complex joint with multiple possible sites of injury. Are you referring to anterior cruciate ligaments, posterior cruciates, medial and lateral collateral ligaments, meniscus injuries, patella or patella tendon injuries, femur or tibial injuries, cartilage problems? All these are common knee complaints/injuries and they can all happen in many different ways.

Lastly, is the team over represented in terms of knee injuries? Or any injuries? That sounds horrifically anecdotal, because those sort of stats would take a long time to collate and there are a lot of clubs that have a lot of injuries year after year. Most fans would consider their own clubs unlucky injury wise, you know why? Because they pay sweet fuck all attention to what's going on elsewhere. If someone came to me and said that over the past 10 years the Warriors have a 50% higher rate of anterior cruciate rupture compared with every other club accounting for the wider squad, reserve grade, and NYC then I would say fine, let's ask why on earth that is. Noone even knows who or what they're asking, or to be more clear, they know so little they don't know who or what to ask. Hence drawing tenuous links between the only prominent medical name at the club and anecdotal feelings about injuries over an undefined period of time is amateur hour at it's best.
Brilliant post and thanks for sharing but I am going to have a go anyway because I can, and I think it makes the Forum a more democratic vehicle than say a forum where people who have personal lines into to players or medical degrees could enjoy a god like un questioned status (whereas pricks like me like to have their say in any case, which is what keeps talk back shows alive...the vehicle of the ignorant).

Devils advocate in other words.

As always I do so with the utmost respect of the informed.

Ok so I have no idea how well NZ Medical school graduates are schooled in the dynamic between knowledge and power. I have never studied medicine so I don't know if in this present age whether Doctors are educated in the great void in terms of power versus powerlessness that they hold all the Ammo in any Dr patient relationship.

I also have no idea as to whether any Dr has a grasp that on average they come from a privileged class, who accordingly may not be best placed to under stand the thinking of the masses.

Excuse the rant but there is a disconnect between academics and the rest when it comes to argument.

Your argument is essentially...that because the owner of the OP doesn't know who to direct questions at...then questions shouldn't be asked ?

I know that is a simplification and not really what you intended....but it is the shiedl your profession and mine uses to hide behind good sir.

There is an old saying.

There is no such thing as a stupid question.

Ask Herbet Green the World Authority on Cancer at National Womens who killed hundreds of NZ Wives and Mothers because he was above questions.

Roger Tuivasa-Sheck should have not weight beared coming off the field. Nor should have Johnson.

There is something wrong in the Warriors system.

This may or may not be the fault of the Warriors chief medical officer.....still questions are relevant since the clubs practices are on telly, which opened a can of worms for the great unwashed onlooking public...whether we are even entitled to answers or not is as you say...protected in legislation.

The clubs in the NRL share that info with the media every time since it sells news and promotes the code.

The only stuff that gets rightly protected is issues with Stigma attached.....mental illness etc...

No one trys to keep a knee injury secret.
 
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