General The Mad Butcher - Sir Peter Leitch QSM

[wizards rage]

Most people looking at a franchise are spending a lot of money. The cost of a lawyer for many is a major issue.

I don't know, because I have never tried it, but the cost to read a 50 page, pedantic contract would be in the thousands, not hundreds.

However, to prove your point, 100%, I sped read a contract on my own, many years ago. I got most of it, except one clause...a doozie .

It said roughly:

The management can change any of the terms of this contract at a weeks notice.

So in other words the contract was toilet paper. This was, and still is, a major NZ company.

Like I said I don't know how much a lawyer would have cost me, because I was already spending over $50000 to get into the business. Over three years in that business I made absolutely nothing...I was down $50000 when I left although I paid the rent and living expenses along the way.

Could I guarantee 100% he would have found that clause? Absolutely not.

I am very experienced in reading legal documents but the sentence was hidden in a section full of irrelevant content, deliberately designed to be missed.

and further...ladies and jellybeans...the punchline is the clause actually cost me nothing...because I lost the money from fraud...total fraud. They ripped me off while actually breaching the contract anyway.

What I should have done was get an ACA accountant. I got conned into using a book keeper that was on the take from the company.

Also, contracts in NZ are toilet paper. I had reams of documents that showed this company was guilty of theft. They have been doing it for years, and probably still are. So much for contracts.

The quality of the people you work and do business with is more important than the contract.

Understand the business fundamentals and then the technical details of the contract is only really important if it all turns to shit.

eg - if you keep out of jail, you don’t ever need to worry about dropping the soap...

 

[Miket12]

The quality of the people you work and do business with is more important than the contract.

Understand the business fundamentals and then the technical details of the contract is only really important if it all turns to shit.

eg - if you keep out of jail, you don’t ever need to worry about dropping the soap...

Very few clients, builders and subbies bother reading specifications for residential projects until something goes wrong and the client starts to complain about either bad workmanship or materials which were substituted from that specified or shown on the plans. Then everyone very quickly reaches for the spec.

Same with the manufacturer's specification and details that goes with building consents. Builders and subbies pretty much never read them but if something goes wrong on site and say a leak occurs, everyone rushes to get out the BC documents to see whose to blame for getting it wrong.

The whole building industry has become a big butt covering exercise where everyone looks for someone else to blame rather that taking responsibility for their own actions.

 

[bruce]

Very few clients, builders and subbies bother reading specifications for residential projects until something goes wrong and the client starts to complain about either bad workmanship or materials which were substituted from that specified or shown on the plans. Then everyone very quickly reaches for the spec.

Same with the manufacturer's specification and details that goes with building consents. Builders and subbies pretty much never read them but if something goes wrong on site and say a leak occurs, everyone rushes to get out the BC documents to see whose to blame for getting it wrong.

The whole building industry has become a big butt covering exercise where everyone looks for someone else to blame rather that taking responsibility for their own actions.

That is what public liability insurance is for.

 

[Miket12]

That is what public liability insurance is for.

Insurance can pay for your mistakes but won’t save your reputation.

 

[bruce]

Insurance can pay for your mistakes but won’t save your reputation.

I know what you mean, I was referring to the types who will argue specs, without good reason, to avoid the final payment. That is when you need insurance, especially if the disputes tribunal is involved.

That is how Bob Jones became a millionaire.

 

[john nick]

Most people looking at a franchise are spending a lot of money. The cost of a lawyer for many is a major issue.

I don't know, because I have never tried it, but the cost to read a 50 page, pedantic contract would be in the thousands, not hundreds.

However, to prove your point, 100%, I sped read a contract on my own, many years ago. I got most of it, except one clause...a doozie .

It said roughly:

The management can change any of the terms of this contract at a weeks notice.

So in other words the contract was toilet paper. This was, and still is, a major NZ company.

Like I said I don't know how much a lawyer would have cost me, because I was already spending over $50000 to get into the business. Over three years in that business I made absolutely nothing...I was down $50000 when I left although I paid the rent and living expenses along the way.

Could I guarantee 100% he would have found that clause? Absolutely not.

I am very experienced in reading legal documents but the sentence was hidden in a section full of irrelevant content, deliberately designed to be missed.

and further...ladies and jellybeans...the punchline is the clause actually cost me nothing...because I lost the money from fraud...total fraud. They ripped me off while actually breaching the contract anyway.

What I should have done was get an ACA accountant. I got conned into using a book keeper that was on the take from the company.

Also, contracts in NZ are toilet paper. I had reams of documents that showed this company was guilty of theft. They have been doing it for years, and probably still are. So much for contracts.

You are so right Bruce and I have had a COA done recently with my partner. Her costs where expensive and mine was even more expensive. Only for an hour each. He also explained that her trust was a long way from being bulletproof

 

[Dixpat]

That is what public liability insurance is for.

Care to elaborate?

 

[bruce]

You are so right Bruce and I have had a COA done recently with my partner. Her costs where expensive and mine was even more expensive. Only for an hour each. He also explained that her trust was a long way from being bulletproof

Lawyers start at about $400 an hour last time I checked. Accountants are much cheaper, and more effective at setting up a business.

To expand, just say you run foul of a bad a contract, if the other side owes you it will be too expensive to take legal action. That was the case with my contract with the major NZ company.

However, an even bigger problem, especially with a franchise is where the contract ties you to things, and you miss it. Now that is serious and can cause a big problem. That is where a lawyer is better, unless the accountant has struck that franchise before, which is often a good chance.

For example I was talking to a guy recently who quit his quite decent job to take up a franchise. He was led to believe he would be making way more from the franchise than in his current job.

The gross income they indicated (not guaranteed of course) might well have been more than his current job. For example courier drivers who are massively ripped off have a gross income way above the average wage, maybe double or more.

What they are not prepared for is the costs they face, especially depreciation of equipment, and the hours they have to work to get it.

The guy I was speaking too found out that not only were his costs way more than he expected, but he had to work over 80 hours a week to get it, not to mention no holidays or days off. they never warn people of that...I wonder why?

Now this guy's deal was with a franchise I know well. If he had said to them stuff you I am out of here, I will just work by myself. They would have slapped him with a legal action for breach of contract on competition. They have done that many times and proudly boast about it to the press.

That is where one has to be smart. You can guarantee that they will probably breach their side of the contract, they all do that. So one just needs to keep a written record, drop it on them and say bye bye.

What this guy did was just quit, and take his substantial losses for purchase of the franchise, which was in the tens of thousands.

On balance these days many franchises are not worth the trouble, although the Aussie Butcher and a few others seem to be very good.

 

[bruce]

Care to elaborate?

Sure, from bitter experience.

I have public liability to cover damage or anything like that. My broker offered me an extension to cover poor workmanship, which was only about $80 a month, but I turned it down.

The reason, most of my jobs are less than $2000, so if I had a problem I would just go and fix it. I had never had a problem anyway, at that stage!!!!

However I got taken in by a couple who obviously planned it, and I later found out had done it before. They were from a fancy suburb.

It was a way bigger job than normal. At first they paid all the invoices very quickly, then they started to miss one but pay another. The job was over a few months, which is not normal for me.

Before I noticed it they were several grand in the red. By that stage I had virtually finished the work, so asked when I was getting paid.

They immediately challenged workmanship. Even though the job had taken months and there had never been any indication of a problem at all. The work was excellent.

I took them to Disputes Tribunal, which anybody will tell you is often a waste of time, and lost horribly.

If I had taken the extra liability cover, my insurance company would have handled the whole lot. The Disputes Tribunals don't usually stuff insurance companies around, they are too big and powerful.

So, the horse had bolted, but I now have that extra cover, and many years later still have not had no claim on it.

Also, for the first time recently I had a very small job, so no problem right?

Then I got phoned and told I had caused substantial damage to the exterior of a building.

It was a very quick job, and we weren't there for long. I didn't know the building that well and actually couldn't remember what it was like before we started.

I freaked out, because although it was possible I had caused the damage (about $5000 worth), but highly unlikely. So I claimed on my policy, and was careful not to admit liability.

It turned out I am now 100% sure the claim was a fraud.

They were a bit too cute in their claim and their photos showed that the damage was probably actually already there. The insurance company saw it my way as well and told them to get stuffed.

They had the damage before I had even worked there, and were trying to get me to cover it. I didn't even have to pay an excess.

Now I am 100% sure that if I didn't have the insurance, they would have taken me to the Disputes Tribunal and I am sure I would have been done for at least half, if not all of the damage.

So insurance is worth it, expensive but worth it.

 

[wizards rage]

Sure, from bitter experience.

I have public liability to cover damage or anything like that. My broker offered me an extension to cover poor workmanship, which was only about $80 a month, but I turned it down.

The reason, most of my jobs are less than $2000, so if I had a problem I would just go and fix it. I had never had a problem anyway, at that stage!!!!

However I got taken in by a couple who obviously planned it, and I later found out had done it before. They were from a fancy suburb.

It was a way bigger job than normal. At first they paid all the invoices very quickly, then they started to miss one but pay another. The job was over a few months, which is not normal for me.

Before I noticed it they were several grand in the red. By that stage I had virtually finished the work, so asked when I was getting paid.

They immediately challenged workmanship. Even though the job had taken months and there had never been any indication of a problem at all. The work was excellent.

I took them to Disputes Tribunal, which anybody will tell you is often a waste of time, and lost horribly.

If I had taken the extra liability cover, my insurance company would have handled the whole lot. The Disputes Tribunals don't usually stuff insurance companies around, they are too big and powerful.

So, the horse had bolted, but I now have that extra cover, and many years later still have not had no claim on it.

Also, for the first time recently I had a very small job, so no problem right?

Then I got phoned and told I had caused substantial damage to the exterior of a building.

It was a very quick job, and we weren't there for long. I didn't know the building that well and actually couldn't remember what it was like before we started.

I freaked out, because although it was possible I had caused the damage (about $5000 worth), but highly unlikely. So I claimed on my policy, and was careful not to admit liability.

It turned out I am now 100% sure the claim was a fraud.

They were a bit too cute in their claim and their photos showed that the damage was probably actually already there. The insurance company saw it my way as well and told them to get stuffed.

They had the damage before I had even worked there, and were trying to get me to cover it. I didn't even have to pay an excess.

Now I am 100% sure that if I didn't have the insurance, they would have taken me to the Disputes Tribunal and I am sure I would have been done for at least half, if not all of the damage.

So insurance is worth it, expensive but worth it.

We had a case where we had installed a light fitting on a deck on a two story building. Several years later we had a call saying water was running out of the down lights below in a storm.

We turned up to have a look. The whole ceiling was pulled apart and the builder was blaming us. They claimed it was all caused by water penetrating the light fitting on the deck above. They went on to claim a $1000 set of ceiling speakers, damage to furniture, carpet, builders costs, etc.

I suspected water had penetrated the deck floor to wall joint (leaky building) for that quantity of damage but the expert builder had written a report against us.

Public liability insurance got involved and ripped them to shreds. It was a labour only job, they had supplied the fitting so their liability and we were only subcontractors to the owners who were the project managers, so the owners assumed all liability.

We didn’t even need to prove what the real cause was, the insurance knew the law and used it.

 

[bruce]

Public liability insurance got involved and ripped them to shreds

...and if you were not insured you would have been. Just like the USA, everybody is insured for everything.

 

[Dixpat]

Sure, from bitter experience.

I have public liability to cover damage or anything like that. My broker offered me an extension to cover poor workmanship, which was only about $80 a month, but I turned it down.

The reason, most of my jobs are less than $2000, so if I had a problem I would just go and fix it. I had never had a problem anyway, at that stage!!!!

However I got taken in by a couple who obviously planned it, and I later found out had done it before. They were from a fancy suburb.

It was a way bigger job than normal. At first they paid all the invoices very quickly, then they started to miss one but pay another. The job was over a few months, which is not normal for me.

Before I noticed it they were several grand in the red. By that stage I had virtually finished the work, so asked when I was getting paid.

They immediately challenged workmanship. Even though the job had taken months and there had never been any indication of a problem at all. The work was excellent.

I took them to Disputes Tribunal, which anybody will tell you is often a waste of time, and lost horribly.

If I had taken the extra liability cover, my insurance company would have handled the whole lot. The Disputes Tribunals don't usually stuff insurance companies around, they are too big and powerful.

So, the horse had bolted, but I now have that extra cover, and many years later still have not had no claim on it.

Also, for the first time recently I had a very small job, so no problem right?

Then I got phoned and told I had caused substantial damage to the exterior of a building.

It was a very quick job, and we weren't there for long. I didn't know the building that well and actually couldn't remember what it was like before we started.

I freaked out, because although it was possible I had caused the damage (about $5000 worth), but highly unlikely. So I claimed on my policy, and was careful not to admit liability.

It turned out I am now 100% sure the claim was a fraud.

They were a bit too cute in their claim and their photos showed that the damage was probably actually already there. The insurance company saw it my way as well and told them to get stuffed.

They had the damage before I had even worked there, and were trying to get me to cover it. I didn't even have to pay an excess.

Now I am 100% sure that if I didn't have the insurance, they would have taken me to the Disputes Tribunal and I am sure I would have been done for at least half, if not all of the damage.

So insurance is worth it, expensive but worth it.

Bruce, without having the wording in front of me I would be reasonably certain that the extra cover for faulty workmanship would only protect you for the damage that resulted from the faulty workmanship not the cost of remedying the faulty workmanship itself - there is a big difference!

 

[bruce]

Bruce, without having the wording in front of me I would be reasonably certain that the extra cover for faulty workmanship would only protect you for the damage that resulted from the faulty workmanship not the cost of remedying the faulty workmanship itself - there is a big difference!

I cannot remember how it was worded, what I do remember was that I was given the example of spraying and mixing the wrong chemical and causing damage.

My point was not the damage, but that the people were arguing workmanship to avoid paying. That was the Bob Jones trick. If you have that insurance it doesn't matter so much about the level of cover but that it protects from vexatious litigation.

 

[Hardyman's Yugo]

Very few clients, builders and subbies bother reading specifications for residential projects until something goes wrong and the client starts to complain about either bad workmanship or materials which were substituted from that specified or shown on the plans. Then everyone very quickly reaches for the spec.

Same with the manufacturer's specification and details that goes with building consents. Builders and subbies pretty much never read them but if something goes wrong on site and say a leak occurs, everyone rushes to get out the BC documents to see whose to blame for getting it wrong.

The whole building industry has become a big butt covering exercise where everyone looks for someone else to blame rather that taking responsibility for their own actions.

The Grenfell Tower disaster. Sounding more and more like designers, developers, manufacturers, even building control supposedly checking compliance, didn’t properly understand the part of the building regs relating to external fire spread

 

[bruce]

The Grenfell Tower disaster. Sounding more and more like designers, developers, manufacturers, even building control supposedly checking compliance, didn’t properly understand the part of the building regs relating to external fire spread

Don't they have similar exterior panels in Auckland?

 

[Hardyman's Yugo]

Don't they have similar exterior panels in Auckland?

High pressure laminates and aluminium clad with combustible core.

 

[Hardyman's Yugo]

Back on thread but the Mad Butcher has put a really nice comment on the Workington Town Facebook page about a bloke who’s been supporting the club since inception in 1946. Didn’t know he was a fan

 

[bruce]

Back on thread but the Mad Butcher has put a really nice comment on the Workington Town Facebook page about a bloke who’s been supporting the club since inception in 1946. Didn’t know he was a fan

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The Butcher is a genuine tragic. Love the dude for it.
Shane Varley played for Workington Town as well.

 

[Hardyman's Yugo]

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The Butcher is a genuine tragic. Love the dude for it.
Shane Varley played for Workington Town as well.

Great player for us Bruce. A couple of lads from one of my old schools (Colin Todd and Ray Lewis) played around then and I knew Alfie McCarron quite well.

 

[Hardyman's Yugo]

His comment btw was

What a nice thing to do every club needs supporter’s like Denis Hodgson to keep the club going So I salute you Denis