General The Lance Hohaia Theorem

Dylan_old

Guest
Lance Hohia v.s Gene Ngamu

Does anyone remember Gene Ngamu, Lance Hohia is exactly the same.
Whats even worse is that both these players were selected constanly for the Kiwi team, and they were useless!!!!!

When are the Warriors and NZRL going to get rid of these second rate players.

It really frustrates me watching Lance Hohia, he really does have potential to be a decent player, but like Gene Ngamu, they crack and make silly mistakes.

Come on!!!

Frustrated fan...
 

Skinny_Ravs82

Guest
I really, really want him to be on the improve, really do. And it frustrates the hell otu of me as well
 

commonsense_old

Guest
J

I wish the bloke all the best, continue to cheer him on in any game he participates for the Warriors and Kiwis, and deadset hate having to be in a position to lambast him, but if I was in charge of recruitment/retention at this club, the names Hohaia, Fien and Rovelli would be high on the agenda of 'When the hell do their contracts end?' Even as I scout below, I look at Lance's potential positions... Halves, I rate O'Regan and John as better players, hooker, I rate Arron Pawley is a better player, fullback, I rate Kevin Locke as a better player, centre I'd go with Francis Leger any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

well after reading that im glad u finally agree with me iafeta. if u dont remember u said hohaia is top 5 worst nrl players and i argued that it was harsh that ur criticising him in a position he doesnt specialise in.

like i said previously over and over again hooker is hohaia's position. but right now with hendo, fien and pawley coming up its gonna be hard for hohaia to cement a spot. he shouldve left the club ages ago. loyalty has got him no where. u know the saying... nice guys finish last.
 

PB_old

Guest
Hohaia is a good player. Kicking and urgency being his weak points, running being his strength. What he suffers from is not being standout enough to command any one position. Which is why he's a utility.

With the injury run he's been pretty handy. They could have used a junior and that's a 50/50 call IMO, but he has the experience under his belt to give him the edge.
 
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attila_the_gorilla

Guest
Loyalty??? I don`t quite understand what that has to do with anything. It`s not like half the NRL has been trying to snatch Lance Hohaia from the Warriors. Loyalty is a cheap word that mediocre people like to hide behind. There`s only one person to be loyal to, and that is yourself.

If Hohaia has a favourite position, then he should stop letting himself be pushed around and be desperate to find a club that will play him in that position. In fact he should have done that years ago. Being a utility will always limit your potential.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
A fun post, my furry friend, and one worthy of a response. Alas, though, you've done little more than say the same thing that I've already said - the guy has talent, puts on great plays, but has a horrible habit of the occasional (and costly) howler.

Even so...

Jesbass my good mate, I know you'll accept this with good humour but for all your good intentions I'd say that theory is largely horsecrap.

Haha! Perhaps... ;)

Deep down everyone knows it as well. The runs? I'd be disappointed if the fullback didn't rate highly. He's got to bring the ball back, surely? Jes, what's Lance's average run metres per game against Stewart? What's Lance's average run metres v McKinnon last year? What about against Slater? Bowen? Hunt? Perrett when he's fullback? Wesser? Kearney?

I have no internet for two days and you want me to roll out the stats? *sigh* Okay...

Average metres (for players while as a fullback):
Sam Perrett - 687m in 4 matches - 171.8m per match
Wade McKinnon (2007) - 3,279m in 22 matches - 149m per match
Billy Slater - 1,549m in 11 matches - 140.8m per match
Brett Kearney - 1,302m in 10 matches - 130.2m per match
Karmichael Hunt - 1,275m in 10 matches - 127.5m per match
Lance Hohaia - 1,368m in 11 matches - 124.4m per match
Brett Stewart - 1,358m in 11 matches - 123.5m per match
Rhys Wesser - 1,480m in 12 matches - 123.3m per match
Matt Bowen - 505m in 6 matches - 84.2m per match

The problem is, this is irrelevant to my post. (But still fun, as I didn't realise he performed quite well in that regard compared to some of the top fullbacks in the NRL.) It would be relevant if I was saying "Hohaia is a gun fullback" or "Hohaia is a better fullback than Wesser", or even "Hohaia had a brilliant game". Alas, I did not. I did say that he didn't have a horrible game - I even went as far to say that, for the most part, he had a good game. Hardly pushing the boundaries.

Also, it's worth taking note that all of the other players in this list, with Perrett as an exception, are specialist fullbacks. Perrett and Hohaia are not. I think we can agree on that much.

Let's sit down for a cup of coffee and a tim-tam when he measures up consistently against these blokes. What's the percentage of times Lance cleans up a difficult situation against these blokes? That I can't give you the answer for, because it's not kept by statisticians but I think it'd be cringeworthy.

I, too, don't have such a stat.

The true facts, not based on statistical theorems but on reality is this;

Against the Penrith Panthers, Lance Hohaia cost the Warriors their first try by slowly jogging out to meet a grubber, that sat up. Too casual.

Against the Manly Sea Eagles some 4-5 weeks later, Lance Hohaia first kick through to him gets a simple kick, he tries to catch it one hand. Again, casual. Lance takes the ball, but he has to tap it up to gather it, as I say an easy kick nothing too hard, and that gives Manly time for 5m to get up and pressure him. Momentum for the set sucked. The point here is Lance failed to learn.

On the game, there was a sitter of a high ball put up with no pressure, Lance tries to catch it at ankle level. Anyone who's anyone knows you catch the ball as high up as possible so your eyes have the maximum exposure to the ball. I was taught that in under 6's.

Against Penrith, off a drop out, Lance tries to catch one knee high with his feet. Not trap it, I dead set maintain the bloke thought he'd catch it. I don't know what the plan was from there, whether he planned to dribble it or hop and hold it on his right foot in the hook of his boot, and then kick an offload field goal, but it was bizarre. Again, too casual.

Third or fourth set, Lance offloads 20m behind the ruck (yes that's right, another silly play that doesn't enter the stats), Mick Luck turns around and gets to the ball, and surrenders. That's fourth tackle, we're back in our 20m. All momentum killed.

Second half, Lance bombs a kick off. I can accept that.

What I can't accept is he didn't learn. Ten minutes later one comes his way, mind you this is with ten minutes to go, with the Warriors in front, Lance thinks it's a good idea once he's caught the difficult ball that he's put down to toss a hail mary out the back to Jerome Ropati whose dropped a thousand balls for the game, for what reason only Lance will know.

And again, we carry on 'Only Lance will know'. Only Lance could ever understand most of his short kicks. I've never seen a player in the NRL kick grubbers into the in goal (and inevitably smash into the advertising hoardings), and see his team-mates standing there going "WTF?", and not chase because they had no idea it was on or why it was on in Lance's mind. At times, Lance doesn't even chase them. The worst part of this is inevitably he does it on early tackle when we need to mount pressure. I've deadset lost count of the amount of games he's done that in.

All howlers. All school boy errors. All surrounded by otherwise good performances. And all, by definition, covered by my original post.

The thing is, Lance isn't going to learn. His blunders, like his talent, are instinctive. They have always plagued his game, and, it seems, they always will.

Conclusion:

Lance is quick.
Lance has fundamental errors in his game.
Lance's kicking game is awful and despite conclusive evidence to suggest this he perserveres.
Lance plays the game casual.
Lance has been tried in a number of positions, and inevitably failed to make the grade in any of them.
Lance has a happy knack of coming into a position and going very well. And then going solidly downhill. Is it complacency?
Lance needs a change in club.
If I could pick one player who I would not bet my life on to come up with an accurate play, it's Lance.
On numerous occassions excuses are mounted in defence of Lance, from lack of faith, to lack of consistent selection etc. Lance has played over 100 first grade games and has not reached the standards required to be anything other a stop gap measure utility.
Lance is systematic of the failings of the roster loading, he is not alone in any of these criticisms and sadly I must point that Nathan Fien and Grant Rovelli are in exactly the same situation. Jack of all trades, masters of none and thus utterly wasteful to our cap expenditure.

I agree about the new club thing. He's been incredibly loyal to this club, and he had his reasons for staying. We (the fans) aren't the only ones who think it was in his best interests to move on.

I would argue, though, about his positional changes, that they've often been around coach changes. He was a livewire as a standoff under Anderson, and excelled again in a new position, (hooker), under Kemp and especially McClennan. Different folks, different strokes. I don't know what (if anything) can be read into that, though.

I wish the bloke all the best, continue to cheer him on in any game he participates for the Warriors and Kiwis, and deadset hate having to be in a position to lambast him, but if I was in charge of recruitment/retention at this club, the names Hohaia, Fien and Rovelli would be high on the agenda of 'When the hell do their contracts end?' Even as I scout below, I look at Lance's potential positions... Halves, I rate O'Regan and John as better players, hooker, I rate Arron Pawley is a better player, fullback, I rate Kevin Locke as a better player, centre I'd go with Francis Leger any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I sincerely hope in a month or so we can all turn around and say 'Told you say Iafeta, you old goose you got this one horribly wrong so there,' I would love a thread on that nature, and I really hope Lance pulls it off, but I'm just sick and tired of the same things repeatedly happening. Settling into a position, taking the bull by the horns... relaxing and ultimately failing.

That's the attitude, mate! It's nice to say you something positive about him for once! :lol1:

Ultimately I come back to the Ghostbuster's theory. "When the game's on the line, who you gonna call?" Not Lance Hohaia. Yet again against Manly, Lance hurt us and hurt us bad. As did Witt, as did Ropati.

That was the reason I started this thread. Hohaia has been told to get ditched by all and sundry, but he wasn't the only one who had a shocker. Ropati is the only other player I've seen being criticised. It's just...odd.

And you know what? I'm not in the "make Hohaia the halfback" brigade - I see him more as a hooker - but you've inspired me to check the shallow stats...

Matches with Lance Hohaia starting as halfback:
Round 26, 2002 - Warriors 28-12 Tigers (WIN)
Round 21, 2003 - Warriors 12-14 Storm (LOSS)
Round 22, 2003 - Dragons 20-30 Warriors (WIN)
Round 23, 2003 - Knights 36-20 Warriors (LOSS)
Round 24, 2003 - Warriors 22-14 Broncos (WIN)
Round 9, 2004 - Cowboys 16-8 Warriors (LOSS)
Round 10, 2004 - Warriors 20-42 Sea Eagles (LOSS)
Round 11, 2004 - Rabbitohs 12-26 Warriors (WIN)
Round 12, 2004 - Roosters 58-6 Warriors (LOSS)
Round 9, 2005 - Sharks 28-24 Warriors (LOSS)

Four wins, and six losses, including three in 2004, (and even a win in 2004). That 58-6 loss to the Roosters was the last Warriors match Daniel Anderson coached. All rather inconclusive. ;)
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
I didn't lambast any player from the weekend, Jerome though I think had a ordinary game but lance wasn't all that bad.

One stat I don't get on there Jesbass is "ineffective tackles"

Now, in my books you either MAKE a tackle or you MISS it, where the hell does an "ineffective or effective" tackle differ from a "tackle" or "missed tackle".

They're just making up stats now

My understanding of it is that an ineffective tackle is when a defender makes contact with a player but fails to ground them. But I don't know what the official ruling is. I mean, if a defender goes in for the tackle, and is palmed off with a fend, is that a miss or an ineffective? If a player tackles an attacker but the attacker offloads, is that a tackle or an ineffective?

(In short, mate, I don't know. I just copy the stats - I don't make them. ;))
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
I have no idea. Obviously a miss is a miss, and a completed tackle is a tackle. It's probably covered in the rules, but the rules are on the desktop, and I'm using the laptop...
 

Warrioraholic_old

Guest
What if Jerome had of called for it? Sometimes people call for the ball and you just try and chuck it to them thinking that they can see something unfolding as your being dragged to the ground. Maybe not this time but it does happen
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
What if Jerome had of called for it? Sometimes people call for the ball and you just try and chuck it to them thinking that they can see something unfolding as your being dragged to the ground. Maybe not this time but it does happen

Aye, it happens a lot. In fact, a lot of broken play intercepts occur when a defender calls for it, and the player with the ball passes to who he thinks is a team mate.

As for whether it happened on this occasion, only a replay would be able to show that.
 

attila_the_gorilla

Guest
My guess would be that a tackle is ineffective when you manage to stop the player but he manages to offload the ball. Any comments?
 

Skinny_Ravs82

Guest
What if Jerome had of called for it? Sometimes people call for the ball and you just try and chuck it to them thinking that they can see something unfolding as your being dragged to the ground. Maybe not this time but it does happen

That might be true it just looked like Hohaia panicked thou
 

commonsense_old

Guest
Loyalty??? I don`t quite understand what that has to do with anything. It`s not like half the NRL has been trying to snatch Lance Hohaia from the Warriors. Loyalty is a cheap word that mediocre people like to hide behind. There`s only one person to be loyal to, and that is yourself.

If Hohaia has a favourite position, then he should stop letting himself be pushed around and be desperate to find a club that will play him in that position. In fact he should have done that years ago. Being a utility will always limit your potential.

he had an option to leave the club years ago but chose to resign. he had money offers in england but chose to stay with the warriors. im with you he shouldve found a club who wouldve let him play in his position.

its good that u mentioned that utility tag limits ur potential. come to think of it, hohaia had really become ineffective when the he actually became a utility. playing around in the centres, wing, fullback (positions u wouldnt play danny buderus or any other hooker/half).

i must say bravo atilla!
 

attila_the_gorilla

Guest
When teams are looking to buy players, they do so for specific positions. Nobody likes to buy a utility as a utility, there`s no point. There are players in every team that can play backup in certain positions or bring up a specialist from reserve grade or juniors. You don`t need a utility to fill in gaps, it`s just a waste of salary cap.
Hohaia is still young, he has quite a few years ahead of him, but he really must stand up for himself, find his favourite position and stick to it. Good luck to him.
 

KeepingTheFaith_old

Guest
To be fair to Hohaia it did look like ROpati took 2-3 steps forward as if he was a support player, but I don't think he actually expected the pass and regardless it should never have been thrown.

Witt was another one who had a shocker. Running the ball on the last 30m out from the line, and I think it was just after we scored a try too. We've got some decent players, but not enough thinkers in the team.

As I've said before that's my main reason for liking Isaac John, he's got the thought process right. Whether he can keep it at the speed of first grade is another thing, and tighten up that execution.
 

KeepingTheFaith_old

Guest
Nothing, if you can guarantee gaining 70 metres to get a try. Running it with only 30m of real estate to defend is somewhere between idiocy and arrogance.

What he said.

I'm a fan of running it on the last, but we were only 30 metres out and didn't have that big an overlap to warrant the risk.

If we'd been 30m out from the opposition line then that'd be another story.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
A fun post, my furry friend, and one worthy of a response. Alas, though, you've done little more than say the same thing that I've already said - the guy has talent, puts on great plays, but has a horrible habit of the occasional (and costly) howler.

Even so...



Haha! Perhaps... ;)



I have no internet for two days and you want me to roll out the stats? *sigh* Okay...

Average metres (for players while as a fullback):
Sam Perrett - 687m in 4 matches - 171.8m per match
Wade McKinnon (2007) - 3,279m in 22 matches - 149m per match
Billy Slater - 1,549m in 11 matches - 140.8m per match
Brett Kearney - 1,302m in 10 matches - 130.2m per match
Karmichael Hunt - 1,275m in 10 matches - 127.5m per match
Lance Hohaia - 1,368m in 11 matches - 124.4m per match
Brett Stewart - 1,358m in 11 matches - 123.5m per match
Rhys Wesser - 1,480m in 12 matches - 123.3m per match
Matt Bowen - 505m in 6 matches - 84.2m per match

The problem is, this is irrelevant to my post. (But still fun, as I didn't realise he performed quite well in that regard compared to some of the top fullbacks in the NRL.) It would be relevant if I was saying "Hohaia is a gun fullback" or "Hohaia is a better fullback than Wesser", or even "Hohaia had a brilliant game". Alas, I did not. I did say that he didn't have a horrible game - I even went as far to say that, for the most part, he had a good game. Hardly pushing the boundaries.

Also, it's worth taking note that all of the other players in this list, with Perrett as an exception, are specialist fullbacks. Perrett and Hohaia are not. I think we can agree on that much.



I, too, don't have such a stat.



All howlers. All school boy errors. All surrounded by otherwise good performances. And all, by definition, covered by my original post.

The thing is, Lance isn't going to learn. His blunders, like his talent, are instinctive. They have always plagued his game, and, it seems, they always will.



I agree about the new club thing. He's been incredibly loyal to this club, and he had his reasons for staying. We (the fans) aren't the only ones who think it was in his best interests to move on.

I would argue, though, about his positional changes, that they've often been around coach changes. He was a livewire as a standoff under Anderson, and excelled again in a new position, (hooker), under Kemp and especially McClennan. Different folks, different strokes. I don't know what (if anything) can be read into that, though.



That's the attitude, mate! It's nice to say you something positive about him for once! :lol1:



That was the reason I started this thread. Hohaia has been told to get ditched by all and sundry, but he wasn't the only one who had a shocker. Ropati is the only other player I've seen being criticised. It's just...odd.

And you know what? I'm not in the "make Hohaia the halfback" brigade - I see him more as a hooker - but you've inspired me to check the shallow stats...

Matches with Lance Hohaia starting as halfback:
Round 26, 2002 - Warriors 28-12 Tigers (WIN)
Round 21, 2003 - Warriors 12-14 Storm (LOSS)
Round 22, 2003 - Dragons 20-30 Warriors (WIN)
Round 23, 2003 - Knights 36-20 Warriors (LOSS)
Round 24, 2003 - Warriors 22-14 Broncos (WIN)
Round 9, 2004 - Cowboys 16-8 Warriors (LOSS)
Round 10, 2004 - Warriors 20-42 Sea Eagles (LOSS)
Round 11, 2004 - Rabbitohs 12-26 Warriors (WIN)
Round 12, 2004 - Roosters 58-6 Warriors (LOSS)
Round 9, 2005 - Sharks 28-24 Warriors (LOSS)

Four wins, and six losses, including three in 2004, (and even a win in 2004). That 58-6 loss to the Roosters was the last Warriors match Daniel Anderson coached. All rather inconclusive. ;)

Gidday my pimply friend. I'd also like to point out one of those matches where we won, Lance went off after about 2 minutes. Against Brisbane he endured a horrific knee injury. The Warriors, through Gorilla-santi, Smash and grab Meli, Tevita Latu and a couple of others produced one of the most memorable wins of all time in my book.
 

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