General Stacey Jones

Iafeta_old

Guest
It grates me to say this, given he's one of my favourite players of all time if not my favourite player of all time, but I was hoping to see a bit of improvement this year in the Warriors kicking game purely through the presence of the great one. Sadly, it really looks like it's gone backwards. I know a lot of emphasis needs to go on the players here, but it looks really weak.

Even watching the Under 20s, Isaac John for instance on cross field bombs regularly goes 4-5 metres in goal on the full, it's very inaccurate. A couple of times when Dan O'Regan has looked to put a kick in it's looked like he's running on ice trying to balance himself.

The questions I ask are;

Why are there no decent organisational halves coming through the systems?
And secondly, am I alone in feeling a little bit of disappointment in Stacey's area?
 
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J_Hallow_old

Guest
It grates me to say this, given he's one of my favourite players of all time if not my favourite player of all time, but I was hoping to see a bit of improvement this year in the Warriors kicking game purely through the presence of the great one. Sadly, it really looks like it's gone backwards. I know a lot of emphasis needs to go on the players here, but it looks really weak.

Even watching the Under 20s, Isaac John for instance on cross field bombs regularly goes 4-5 metres in goal on the full, it's very inaccurate. A couple of times when Dan O'Regan has looked to put a kick in it's looked like he's running on ice trying to balance himself.

The questions I ask are;

Why are there no decent organisational halves coming through the systems?
And secondly, am I alone in feeling a little bit of disappointment in Stacey's area?

i actually dont know if he still is the kicking coach. He looks to be running the water bottles for the u/20's. i think even the commentators said last week something about him finishing a degree or something and now he runs the water bottles out.

In terms of kicking, all it seems we have in the arsenal is a bomb.
 

kingdamo_old

Guest
He always was more of an instinct player, his skill was alot of talent which is very difficult if not impossible to teach.

The Johns brothers on the other hand did have pure talent, but they worked bloody hard ALOT to get as good as they were. And this can be taught in my opinion.

What I'm saying doesn't really convey what I am trying to say lol but I hope someone gets me.
 

Esoj_old

Guest
didn't he only have 2 sessions a week anyway? also what about the rest of the coaching staff like cleary who have the team the whole week. I think it's a touch unfair to just blame stacey since his contact and control over the team is way more limited than cleary. cleary is the top coach and ultimately he is the one responsible for on field success and is also the guy that is fronting the media and coaching the team at games etc not stacey.
 

Joe 90_old

Guest
The questions I ask are;

Why are there no decent organisational halves coming through the systems?
Mate, go to a Nationals Touch tournament here, you'll see potential halves galore. Problem is, their all built like rakes and would snap in half with a decent hit, ala Benji.

And secondly, am I alone in feeling a little bit of disappointment in Stacey's area?
All i know in regard to this is that i'm sick and tired when watching other games of seeing their kickers consistently roll out 40/20s, able to find the in goal from 40-45 out, find space, and pin point bombs/chips to runners, then thinking if only we could do that.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
didn't he only have 2 sessions a week anyway? also what about the rest of the coaching staff like cleary who have the team the whole week. I think it's a touch unfair to just blame stacey since his contact and control over the team is way more limited than cleary. cleary is the top coach and ultimately he is the one responsible for on field success and is also the guy that is fronting the media and coaching the team at games etc not stacey.

Yes Ivan is the head coach so ultimately he should be accountable. But in a lot of areas the Warriors have stayed the same or got better this year. But in kicking.... the Warriors are deadset hopeless. From juniors to seniors. I don't know if it appears this way because I'm bitter on the performance of our non-performing group of halves, but to me it just appears as if we've gone a mile backwards when I was hoping Stacey's presence might assist progression and development. Our halves can all run, but for the life of them none of them can kick.
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
It grates me to say this, given he's one of my favourite players of all time if not my favourite player of all time, but I was hoping to see a bit of improvement this year in the Warriors kicking game purely through the presence of the great one. Sadly, it really looks like it's gone backwards. I know a lot of emphasis needs to go on the players here, but it looks really weak.

Even watching the Under 20s, Isaac John for instance on cross field bombs regularly goes 4-5 metres in goal on the full, it's very inaccurate. A couple of times when Dan O'Regan has looked to put a kick in it's looked like he's running on ice trying to balance himself.

The questions I ask are;

Why are there no decent organisational halves coming through the systems?
And secondly, am I alone in feeling a little bit of disappointment in Stacey's area?

General kicking play is so critical. Kicking to the opposition fullback a meter our from his goal line, kicking to the corners, kicking for distance and territory, 40/20 kicks, kicking to the wingers, back spin on kicks into the ingoal etc.

Someone like Stacey Jones can only do so much. Stacey Jones can only guide these halves he can't do it for them.

Look at the personell he has to work with. I still have time for someone like Isaac John, hes only young and still looks to me like a player to persevere with. Whereas Grant Rovelli and Michael Witt dont look like getting any better. It would be alright to say Grant Rovelli's performances have been satisfactory if he was a 20 year old, but hes not hes 25 and has played over 50 NRL games now. Michael Witt and Grant Rovelli are considered by many on here as natural five eights, its time to move these boys on and try something new. We have got good depth at five eight with Daniel O'Regan, Joel Moon, and Isaac John who can play five eight.
 
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attila_the_gorilla

Guest
We have got good depth at five eight with Daniel O'Regan, Joel Moon, and Isaac John who can play five eight.

I think O`Regan has been playing lock forward recently for the juniors, maybe that`s his intended position. Anyway, who would be your halfback?
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
I think O`Regan has been playing lock forward recently for the juniors, maybe that`s his intended position. Anyway, who would be your halfback?

Yeah thats his position Lock, but he can cover Five eight. My halfback for next season providing that we dont sign anyone else would be Isaac John. But I hope we sign Liam Foran for next season and not Matt Head. Liam Foran would be my perfered Halfback if we sign him.

Like I said in another thread if Wade McKinnon returns to fullback in the next few weeks I'd move Lance Hohaia in the halves alongside Nathan Fien with Jerome Ropati on the bench. Or they could use Jerome Ropati at five eight and put Lance Hohaia on the bench im not sure what they should do.

Who would your halfback be?
 
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blain91_old

Guest
o'regen is a ball playing lock, so hes a big 6, so unless we had a dominant 7 i dont think he would be the best option. alot of potential though
 

attila_the_gorilla

Guest
Yeah that`s been my impression when he was playing 5/8, he seemed a bit too big and slow there. Hmmm my halfback? I haven`t got a clue...
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
I'd rather have Daniel O'Regan playing five eight than Grant Rovelli there.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
It grates me to say this, given he's one of my favourite players of all time if not my favourite player of all time, but I was hoping to see a bit of improvement this year in the Warriors kicking game purely through the presence of the great one. Sadly, it really looks like it's gone backwards. I know a lot of emphasis needs to go on the players here, but it looks really weak.

Even watching the Under 20s, Isaac John for instance on cross field bombs regularly goes 4-5 metres in goal on the full, it's very inaccurate. A couple of times when Dan O'Regan has looked to put a kick in it's looked like he's running on ice trying to balance himself.

The questions I ask are;

Why are there no decent organisational halves coming through the systems?
And secondly, am I alone in feeling a little bit of disappointment in Stacey's area?

I'll state my bias right at the beginning and say that I'm pro-Stacey Jones.

Stacey is still the kicking coach at the Warriors, but this is a part time role. It only consists of two afternoons per week. It's also his debut coaching role and he himself is finding his feet. If anything, he's doing the club a favour, moreso than anything else.

The problem with the kickers, according to Stace, is that they panic. We fans can recognise that, too. At the end of the day, he can only teach so much. I'm of the understanding that in training runs, the players are kicking really well - but in actual matches, they struggle with the added pressure and don't have the vision to release that pressure valve, so they put in a bad kick or pass it to someone else to get sacked, and the pressure just gets worse.

Essentially, I think you're placing a lot of blame on Stacey who is coaching their kicking well by all accounts, but they fail to cope with the pressure due to a lack of vision - something that isn't easy to coach, I would think.

As for the halfbacks coming through the grades, and so on, here are a few interesting Stacey quotes related to the problem of limited quality Kiwi halves:
Stacey Jones said:
"We struggle in key positions in our game, because at a younger age a lot of our players are big boys and what happens is they get the ball and pass it to the big guy and he just runs up the middle and scores a try. Our game is based on speed and strength – not a lot around skill."

Stacey Jones said:
"It’s difficult to produce good young halfbacks because it’s not based around skill. There’s some work to be done in those key areas. If you look at the Warriors, the key positions are all filled by Australians: McKinnon at fullback, Rovelli and Witt in the halves, Fien and Henderson as hookers. So there’s a question mark about why we haven’t got any Kiwis in those positions. And that’s because at a young age, that’s just the way it is. They pass the ball to the big guy – speed and strength."

Stacey Jones said:
"Maybe we have to set up academies here in New Zealand. Maybe we have to send kids over to Australia at a young age – we’re now seeing players like Benji Marshall, Ben Roberts, and Issac Luke (as a result)."

Stacey Jones said:
"Talent isn’t going to get you everywhere. A talented player who has the desire to train is going to be a lot better than a person who hasn’t got the talent but really wants to train. But you need that desire and commitment. It’s pretty hard work."

Probably the most telling one, though, is this:
Stacey Jones said:
"It’s a bit of a ‘scratching the head’ one."

And going by the way the NZRL have gone about fixing this problem, I'd say they're in the same boat.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
I would suggest then that the Warriors have a vested interest in the development of the halves, and perhaps need to form an NZRL subcommittee on the premise of finding relevent pathways to develop young halves? Surely there's got to be some way to uncover these guys.
 

attila_the_gorilla

Guest
Like it has been mentioned in some other thread a while ago, local youth-grade competitions have considerably reduced the number of interchanges allowed in a game. Not sure exactly to how many, but that is a great way to promote skill and vision, as opposed to just sheer size and power. It will surely take a few years though before we can see the benefits at NRL level.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
For those close to the grass roots level, (i.e. not me), would reducing the defensive line to a 5 metre rule assist? I would have thought that would be a simple, effective way to limit the impact of the big boys and enable the smaller skill-based players to thrive, rather than get literally bashed out of the code.