General Sack The Players

Run_it_str8

1st Grade Fringe
Apr 1, 2016
2,607
its not the players its the culture which starts with the coach

does anyone honestly think bellamy or bennet would stand for the slop that this fkn team serves up every week????????????????

It is totally team culture, lack of accountability to each other, systemic etc.

Why do they turn up every week on game day/night?

Thats a question I would like each team member to answer to the rest of the team.

Because it looks like some are there to win.
Some are there to make money to support their families. Some are there for f*#ked if I know and neither do they.

But can we all be there for the same purpose?
 

Jay M

Warriors 1st Grader
Sep 25, 2012
4,693
Back in Auckland
The last? Shaun Johnson, before him Mutts.

Sorry, but on this one I'm calling rubbish (to an extent).

Shaun Johnson has been blessed with natural talent. The warriors have not really developed him at all. He still plays like he played in 2011 when he first came into first grade. Comes in and drifts out of games. Sure, from time to time you see a great try assist, maybe a 40/20, a towering bomb (ok that happens a lot, not from time to time), a highlights reel try... but when is he going to fully mature as a player and lead the side round the park properly. You see it in small amounts - maybe 3-4 games a season.

Mutts wasn't developed by the warriors. He was developed before he got to the warriors. One point I'll give you though - Mutts plays attack and defence though. But I think that came from him growing up, not from being neglected in the warriors system.
 
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Run_it_str8

1st Grade Fringe
Apr 1, 2016
2,607
Rubbish.

Shaun Johnson has been blessed with natural talent. The warriors have not really developed him at all. He still plays like he played in 2011 when he first came into first grade. Comes in and drifts out of games. Sure, from time to time you see a great try assist, maybe a 40/20, a towering bomb (ok that happens a lot, not from time to time), a highlights reel try... but when is he going to fully mature as a player and lead the side round the park properly. You see it in small amounts - maybe 3-4 games a season.

Mutts wasn't developed by the warriors. He was developed before he got to the warriors. One point I'll give you though - Mutts plays attack and defence though. But I think that came from him growing up, not from being neglected in the warriors system.

Warriors juniors have an abundance of natural talent.

The further development of that natural talent into natch + practiced will grow them.

Work ethic plus natch talent beats talent on it's own.
 

Angus Young

NSW Cup Player
Apr 14, 2016
87
It is totally team culture, lack of accountability to each other, systemic etc.

Why do they turn up every week on game day/night?

Thats a question I would like each team member to answer to the rest of the team.

Because it looks like some are there to win.
Some are there to make money to support their families. Some are there for f*#ked if I know and neither do they.

But can we all be there for the same purpose?

spot on....do u really think these players honestly give a fuck about winning? The Broncos and NQLD want to win premierships, that's why they are there...and if u dont buy into that culture u are shown the door.

The Warriors are happy to collect their pay checks.

The whole fkn thing shits me. Does this club seriously expect us to travel, to turn up and watch this team, pay our memberships, pay to go to games?

Either play finals or sack the coach, the players, managament and every other useless cu** involved. get in some experienced heads from a successful club with a successful culture.

Anyway..no- finals this year I- aint putting out another cent towards this fkn club in my life nor attending another game.

Turn this fkn season around, play finals and win at least one and ill buy 5 memberships.
 
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mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
Jun 21, 2012
22,810
Mt. Wellington, Auckland
There is only one great who was developed in NZ and through the Warriors system. Thats Stacey Jones.




Daylight




Next would be Manu Vatuvei who is 5 tries shy of making the top 10 all time top try scorers in the 108 year history of the NSWRL/ARL/NRL. By the time his career is up he'll be well inside the top 10. Also his record of scoring 10 tries on 10 consecutive seasons will take some beating. Say what you want about his defence and fingers. He'll go down as one of the clubs greats for a very long time.

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By the time Simon Mannering career has ended and he's played 300 games for the club he'll be a club immortal. Seems ridiculous that some want him to play NSW Cup but thats the sort of unappreciated opinion thats plagued the poor guy all his career.

Both Manu and Juju will only be fully appreciated once theyre gone. We already saw last year how shit we are in the middle without Simon covering everyones arses and we see how poorly our sets get off to without Manu.

The biggest one that got away would have had to be a toss up between Henry Paul and Ruben Wiki.

Others that have been at the top of the game for at least aspect of it, albeit briefly, would be Clinton Toopi, Francis Meli, Nigel Vagana, Jerry Seuseu, Monty Betham, Ali Lauitiiti, Henry Fa'afili, Jerome Ropati and Sam Rapira.

Anyone who thinks the other Shaun Johnson is even close to Jones shadow needs to wake up. He may get there but he's a long way off.

All just my opinion of course...
 

Jay M

Warriors 1st Grader
Sep 25, 2012
4,693
Back in Auckland
All just my opinion of course...

Thanks for your input mt.wellington mt.wellington - I asked the question and I agree with what you've written (largely anyway). The point I mentioned earlier, and came back to, is that in the last 10 years, we haven't really developed anyone... we've possibly had the best talent (at times) that we've ever seen, and yet we've largely struggled...

And that can only really be blamed on the club's systems.

Shaun Johnson has so many natural talents and abilities Jones didn't have. But Jones could run a football team and his ability on the field was phenomenal.
 

Run_it_str8

1st Grade Fringe
Apr 1, 2016
2,607
Thanks for your input mt.wellington mt.wellington - I asked the question and I agree with what you've written (largely anyway). The point I mentioned earlier, and came back to, is that in the last 10 years, we haven't really developed anyone... we've possibly had the best talent (at times) that we've ever seen, and yet we've largely struggled...

And that can only really be blamed on the club's systems.

Shaun Johnson has so many natural talents and abilities Jones didn't have. But Jones could run a football team and his ability on the field was phenomenal.

I would look to develop props and second rowers with a minimum height of 190cm (weight can be added or dropped but apparently you can't eat or exercise yourself taller).

Ideally probably 190cm - 196cm.

It would be great to improve our prop stocks by size, work ethic, game intelligence, fast twitch stuff.

Then prop rotation could dominate our interchanges.

For our backs I would develop work ethic first. Game intelligence second. Positional skills after that. Fitness and other stuff later.
 
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mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
Jun 21, 2012
22,810
Mt. Wellington, Auckland
Ideally probably 190cm - 196cm.
Height certainly has its advantages but to have it on a checklist is ridiculous. Whats more important is the top two inches and their drive to improve and succeed.

Sam Lousi was one of the tallest Warriors ever but that didnt mean he was any good.

Heres a small list of front and back rowers under 190cm...

James Graham 188cm
Josh McGuire 180cm
Sam Moa 183cm
Paul Gallen 180cm
Corey Parker 188cm
Aiden Tolman 183cm
Jacob Lillyman 183cm
 
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Run_it_str8

1st Grade Fringe
Apr 1, 2016
2,607
Height certainly has its advantages but to have it on a checklist is ridiculous. Whats more important is the top two inches and their drive to improve and succeed.

Sam Lousi was one of the tallest Warriors ever but that didnt mean he was any good.

Heres a small list of front and back rowers under 190cm...

James Graham 188cm
Josh McGuire 180cm
Sam Moa 183cm
Paul Gallen 180cm
Corey Parker 188cm
Aiden Tolman 183cm
Jacob Lillyman 183cm

Yeah I hear what you're saying.

But I'd just like that top two inches to be on top of a bigger body as an ideal imo.
 

Danpatmac

Guest
Height certainly has its advantages but to have it on a checklist is ridiculous. Whats more important is the top two inches and their drive to improve and succeed.

Sam Lousi was one of the tallest Warriors ever but that didnt mean he was any good.

Heres a small list of front and back rowers under 190cm...

James Graham 188cm
Josh McGuire 180cm
Sam Moa 183cm
Paul Gallen 180cm
Corey Parker 188cm
Aiden Tolman 183cm
Jacob Lillyman 183cm


if Sam Moa and Jacob Lillyman are 183cm then i'm Wilt Chamberlain
 

Off The Bench

Warriors 1st Grader
Jan 26, 2014
3,176
I think you can put Jones in the great category certainly, I would rate him on a par with Langer and unfortunate for him that he only got to play in a good team for two years. I think Manu has claims to am struggling to recall any wingers better and his longevity has been amazing. It all depends what your definition of great is I guess.

Shit I only played till under 21, s and it was union, Thought I was pretty average myself :cigar:
 

Horriors2013

1st Grade Fringe
May 24, 2013
2,121
Didn't John Hart mentor Cleary? I think people either forget or underestimate his role in Ivan's development. Cleary certainly wasn't an experienced FG coach when he got here.
Good point. And Hart was an excellent mentor at that! But he wouldn't have been telling Ivan about tactics on the field eh? It was more how to manage players I would think.

Cappy's plays don't seem to work on this team. But that might be more because they're lazy asses or dumbfucks- take your pick.

I would like to have just 4 or 5 years from a Wayne Bennet-level coach to test them out. If they still lose they couldn't blame the coach. That would be a telling story.

If only we could get one to test the theory. .
 

Horriors2013

1st Grade Fringe
May 24, 2013
2,121
There is only one great who was developed in NZ and through the Warriors system. Thats Stacey Jones.




Daylight




Next would be Manu Vatuvei who is 5 tries shy of making the top 10 all time top try scorers in the 108 year history of the NSWRL/ARL/NRL. By the time his career is up he'll be well inside the top 10. Also his record of scoring 10 tries on 10 consecutive seasons will take some beating. Say what you want about his defence and fingers. He'll go down as one of the clubs greats for a very long time.


By the time Simon Mannering career has ended and he's played 300 games for the club he'll be a club immortal. Seems ridiculous that some want him to play NSW Cup but thats the sort of unappreciated opinion thats plagued the poor guy all his career.

Both Manu and Juju will only be fully appreciated once theyre gone. We already saw last year how shit we are in the middle without Simon covering everyones arses and we see how poorly our sets get off to without Manu.

The biggest one that got away would have had to be a toss up between Henry Paul and Ruben Wiki.

Others that have been at the top of the game for at least aspect of it, albeit briefly, would be Clinton Toopi, Francis Meli, Nigel Vagana, Jerry Seuseu, Monty Betham, Ali Lauitiiti, Henry Fa'afili, Jerome Ropati and Sam Rapira.

Anyone who thinks the other Shaun Johnson is even close to Jones shadow needs to wake up. He may get there but he's a long way off.

All just my opinion of course...

So true. I agree with all that. So have we gone backwards? Or have other clubs progressed and we've stayed stagnant?

We win U20s most years although this year we seem to not be getting very far. I know we usually start slow because personnel changes each year, but I don't see much improvement in them. The above players all made it to the top level and thrived. Out of this crop we have Simon, Vatuvei, Mutts, Shaun Johnson. To me the difference bewteen the crop tyou mentioned and this lot is that the players around them were better. Anderson and Cleary both built up sides where our defence could grind out a win. This lot are powderpuffs but I am seeing improvement.

I am willing to guts it out this year and see what we can do. With Lolohea and Shaun Johnson in their rightful positions and Luke and Roger Tuivasa-Sheck chiming in, it's just a matter of the 4 of them deciding amongst themselves how they are each going to chime in. Once those 4 get it right that's too much attack for any side to hold. Provided...

The forwards put their bodies on the line.
 

Run_it_str8

1st Grade Fringe
Apr 1, 2016
2,607
So true. I agree with all that. So have we gone backwards?

I am willing to guts it out this year and see what we can do. With Lolohea and Shaun Johnson in their rightful positions and Luke and Roger Tuivasa-Sheck chiming in, it's just a matter of the 4 of them deciding amongst themselves how they are each going to chime in. Once those 4 get it right that's too much attack for any side to hold. Provided...

The forwards put their bodies on the line.

Our spine is amazing. Just not tuned in yet.

Amazing on paper but mentally not in sync.

It's mental. All in the mind.

I think we have a great junior pool but lack the transional development system, as in our first grade team is not consistently successful.

Therefore the Tui’s and Benny Muttz only have a team potential that already exists.

If Kodi Nikorima came from under 20s straight to us at first grade level he would be in the same state as Tui imo.

But he is developing under a master coach who has a knack for being a father figure off the field which imo helps the coaching relationship.

This shows players that the coach is not authoritarian but has a genuine care for the person, not just the player.

Then
the players feel valued as people and will buy in and respect your coaching and game plans
 

Horriors2013

1st Grade Fringe
May 24, 2013
2,121
Our spine is amazing. Just not tuned in yet.

Amazing on paper but mentally not in sync.

It's mental. All in the mind.

I think we have a great junior pool but lack the transional development system, as in our first grade team is not consistently successful.

Therefore the Tui’s and Benny Muttz only have a team potential that already exists.

If Kodi Nikorima came from under 20s straight to us at first grade level he would be in the same state as Tui imo.

But he is developing under a master coach who has a knack for being a father figure off the field which imo helps the coaching relationship.

This shows players that the coach is not authoritarian but has a genuine care for the person, not just the player.

Then
the players feel valued as people and will buy in and respect your coaching and game plans

I think most clubs strive to get that transition between U20s and first grade right. You'd think NSW cup/ISP would bridge that gap in the same way that Bartercard Cup did.In fact it's better because from U20s to ISP to First grade, they get a taste of the travel factor-our biggest weakness and somethign we're always trying to fine-tune. So i think ISP is the right way to go.

Our problem is 1) The basics at schoolboy level are lacking. People still make teams just for being talented and to hell with defence or the basics of catch and pass. But probably the biggest difference is the kind of playmakers we produce. Gone are the days where the halves focused on putting players through gaps. They seem to just be runners now. JT is first and foremost a gap-finder and passer. His running game comes second. Shaun Johnson and Lolo are runners first, passers second, but the kind of passes they flick are after they've run or hospital passes.

Shaun Johnson is at his best when he's creating overlaps and going on jinking runs. Just let him do it. Forget the organisation-we always attacked best without it anyway. Let Luke and Roger Tuivasa-Sheck do that. Roger Tuivasa-Sheck already has been if you re-watch the games. There's enough kicking ability to spread the load.

On another note, the GF team of 2002 couldn't have looked so good if the forwards were not dominating. And for mine we have the composition wrong in the forwards. Mutts, Luke, Mannering, Thompson/Hoffman are great, but I question the efficacy of having Hoffman AND Mannering in the second row/loose forward bracket together-only for the size and attack balance. I think individually the 3 are fantastic. But I do think they don't make enough impact on attack as a trio. The go forward is lacking penetration. I reckon the defence was on the mark for most of the last 2 weeks. But they just got worn down at the backend because they made themselves have to make too many tackles (a Warrior syndrome since 1995). If we up our completion rate and stop dropping ball at vital times, we'll compete with anyone.
 

Miket12

Warriors 1st Grader
Apr 20, 2012
10,580
Surely if we offered him up right now, someone like the Titans would snap him up.
And do we want to end up paying for him to play for a feeder club like we're now doing with Mateo playing NSW Cup for Manly?

I'd rather we keep him here until his contract is gone and then cut him loose if he's still not performing!!
 
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Miket12

Warriors 1st Grader
Apr 20, 2012
10,580
Sometimes Management employ mystery shoppers to see how their business is rated by the public.

Sometimes Management employ TROLLS to fly a kite and gauge what the reaction is like.
You've just confirmed what I have always suspected - YOU ARE JD!!!! Ladies and Gentlemen, a god is walking amongst us!!!!
 

wallacenz

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
7,328
Height certainly has its advantages but to have it on a checklist is ridiculous. Whats more important is the top two inches and their drive to improve and succeed.

Sam Lousi was one of the tallest Warriors ever but that didnt mean he was any good.

Heres a small list of front and back rowers under 190cm...

James Graham 188cm
Josh McGuire 180cm
Sam Moa 183cm
Paul Gallen 180cm
Corey Parker 188cm
Aiden Tolman 183cm
Jacob Lillyman 183cm
Moa, Tolman and Lillyman are a class below the other 4, and the quality of those other 4 can be attributed to their workrate and endurance. A big guy can make do with size.

Its probably easier to find a big guy than a Mcguire, Graham, Gallen or Parker
 

Pete

1st Grade Fringe
Oct 3, 2012
875
And do we want to end up paying for him to play for a feeder club like we're now doing with Mateo playing NSW Cup for Manly?

I'd rather we keep him here until his contract is gone and then cut him loose if he's still not performing!!
I reckon they would take his full contract. Show him the highlights reel rather than the whole matches. If they have money to burn and are under the cap then why not?
 

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