Post Match [Round 10, 2022] - Warriors vs Rabbitohs Post Match Discussion

[Horriors2013]

I have possibly an important point to make. Or at least an 8 out of ten importance point. Would appreciate people reading it.

The Warriors show their hand too early in each game. We often come up with a good game plan. Such as attack Player X in the back line because he is young. And we come up with early points because of it. Problem is that the opposition coaches notice and at half time they make corrections to snuff out our successful tactic and come up with a counter.
Meantime our thinktank and coach says "we are going great do more of the same".
So naturally the other team often makes a comeback and we lose in the second half.
This wasn;t the pattern last night but has been a pattern.

Other teams are the opposite. They keep their strategies secret and then whop us in the second half.
For example a couple of times when Ed Kosi was taken apart in the last two seasons was in the second half yet coming into the game the oppostion would have known of his weaknesses. Yet they patiently waited until the second half so they could just keep coming at him over and over again without having the chance to have coaches intervene and tell us how to compensate.

Now coming to last nights game.
Souths after scoring 3 edge tries which were soft as fuck stopped going to the edge for tries. After getting to 18 to 0 in 15 minutes they then started scoring tries through the middle. They didn't want to keep scoring on the edges or we would figure out at half time that was our problem and A) fix it B) fix it permanently so that next time they play us they can't score down our edges.
I palpably saw Souths after getting to 18 to 0 actually have a think and decide they have over played their hand by exposing our edge defence so early in the game and they started trying to score tries in the middle instead.

You can even argue Souths themselves overdid their initial raids on us as we did tighten up at half time and nearly came back at them.

There is no conclusion to this post other than we need to stop blowing our wad in the first half of games as everyone else is more canny than us. All the other teams know this dynamic except for us it seems.

I don't think they stopped attacking the edges. But we stiffened up the defence there when Tohu Harris came on.

However, I agree with your sentiment. I believe we are predictable on attack. Sides can read Shaun Johnson. He's either going to pass, bomb or grubber. What he's nit doing is running into the corridor where he can sneak a pass into a gap. That's how he used to get a lot of try assists. That's what we need from him. Threading the needle.

 

[defensivebomb]

the first half which was 1 of the worst warriors performances I've seen in a while

by "in a while", do you mean one week or three weeks?

 

[Noitall]

Warriors showed potential against Rabbitohs, but crucial games coming up

Warriors hooker Jazz Tevaga hopes the way they played in the second 40 minutes on Saturday will give the team a much needed confidence boost.

www.stuff.co.nz

Good that the edge defence has been highlighted.

 

[Wilko77]

Good o’l 40 minute warriors are back !

 

[Since95]

I don't think they stopped attacking the edges. But we stiffened up the defence there when Tohu Harris came on.

However, I agree with your sentiment. I believe we are predictable on attack. Sides can read Shaun Johnson. He's either going to pass, bomb or grubber. What he's nit doing is running into the corridor where he can sneak a pass into a gap. That's how he used to get a lot of try assists. That's what we need from him. Threading the needle.

Yeah you watch others and they make an attempt to run into traffic more often. It should be his first thought. Because if he can cause a collapse Walsh will ice those chances.

When he began to run he did

 

[Wrighty]

This is where your theory about only signing 'NRL Standard Players' kind of falls over. You'd struggle to sign even a limited player like Edrick Lee for minimum wage ($120k this year). I can't see many clubs jumping over each other for him (Injury prone, tits for hands) but say you could for $200k (Warriors tax etc) that now blocks a spot of one of your more long term prospects with a way higher ceiling than Lee in you Top 30 and you've wasted $60k that could have been spent elsewhere.

Gus said it well a while back (may have been on his podcast), that there is an element to the salary cap where clubs need to make calculated gambles on youngsters. For every Taylan May there is probably 10 rookies who struggle joining first grade. And its no wonder the Average NRL career is only 30-40 games. For clubs like the Panthers the element of risk for them is currently small because they're dominating most teams and their rookies aren't put in the same positions ours are. Same too with the Cowboys at the moment. They're currently playing unreal football and their youngsters are all looking like superstars. Confidence, winning culture etc etc.

At some point clubs need to take that calculated gamble and move away from the safe option, move on experienced players and go all in on their rookies. Not only because they're likely to be better but mainly because they can pay them less. Worked wonderfully for the Panthers when they booted Mansour, which at the time looked harsh considering his experience, but ultimately was the right option.

Hi Sultan
Thanks for understating my viewpoint and countering it with an alternative
I feel very flattered that you have taken the time to comprehend my theory in its entirety

I standby my theory

We can easily afford to drop one of ratuva or kosi and hence edrick lee would not block anyone
I have my own take on the mansour example based on living in North America and following NHL ice hockey for 15 years
In the NHL 16 teams qualify for playoffs or at least they used to when I watched
Each playoff round was best of 7
The common expression was the playoffs are where the real season begins
Players making mistakes in the regular season were forgiven
Players making mistakes costing a playoff game were never forgiven and often traded away
With that paradigm I will note that Mansour shat the bed in one of his last playoff matches for the panthers so based on my sporting background it came as no surprise to me when panthers washed their hands of him

I do think some of the panthers whet behind the ears outside backs will come unglued in the playoffs and could cost panthers

I think all recruitment should be for nrl standard players even if they are journeymen like Montoya or edrick
Reece Walsh was NRL standard right away from his first game and ready for the nrl
None of our other noobs should have been given first grade time and should have stated in reserves to they were 22 or 23

Reserves is for development
Ed kosis mental well being has been damaged by giving him first grade time
Same with Rocco berry
Both of their confidence is shattered atm

 

[1995Warriorsfan]

I finally got myself to watch a reply of the game. We actually played really well in the second half. If they can continue to play like that, I actually have hope.

 

[Wrighty]

Where did I say that paying overs for Aussies was the answer?

Your concept is wrong. By the time they hit 18-19 they are well entrenched in the Super Rugby system and the best are earmarked for higher honours. They're not giving that up to play for the Mudpool Wazzas.

Not only that but they have zero league knowledge and what we've seen time and time again is you can't have players learning to play league in first grade.

Also, grabbing the "best athletes" is another wrong concept that we've quite frankly gone about time after time with little success.

If a player comes along with the full package then grab them, but going after attributes is what has killed is in the past.

The only way is to have lower grade teams properly set up to develop players from u16 onwards. That takes time and money, both things we're usually reluctant to invest.

On top of that we need to gut the club from the inside out with coaches who can actually teach and fine tune the mental/strategic side of the game alongside the skills.

Trying to cherry pick 18-19 year olds from a Super Rugby u20's is not only a sure fire failure, but it would be repeating the same fatal mistakes that have cruelled us for 20 odd years - thinking we can just transplant attributes into a league jersey and they'll pick up the rest as they go along.

Posting this here from the recruitment thread.
Best post of 2022.
In cricket kids at under 13 level have sophisticated abilities.
We should be picking league players who have been playing league since 11 years old.

 

[Brother Faisal]

Went through a detailed re watch of the game. Some interesting developments revealed themselves in this game.

Murchie: Was a revelation on the edge, broke the initial tackle and drove through the line every time he got the ball, I would say he deserves another shot next to Shaun Johnson, he was damaging which is a first for backrowers this year because not one of them have had an impact offensively.

Stats:
80 min for 107 metres, 12 hit ups and 45 tackles. Thats a pretty good stat line up there with an Aitken type performance. I feel he may have earned a shot at holding down the right edge position.

Lussick: Has copped alot of flack on here including by myself but upon further review was solid, gave good front foot ball, grew into the game in the second half, he was having a positive effect on the game and the halves were getting the ball where they wanted, interestingly he kicked out of dummy half on a solo decision but he has a good boot and ended up being not too bad. I like him, I like him enough to keep him on the bench, I think he and jazz worked well as a rotation but if egan is back then I think Jazz beats him for the 14 spot, but I think a good signing and reliable cover.

Reeces best game this year: Something changed at the end of the 1st half, its almost like he said he had enough of whatever the team was doing to that point. In the second half he was damn near involved on every set, his runs out of dummy half were great for the teams energy and go forward. He really engaged himself the way we hope he would in that second half and despite the errors it was more about his energy and effort. I hope it is a turning point for him as what I saw from him 2nd half is what we need for 80 mins. He called for the ball and played first receiver a ton which is why I felt the change to halves would work, I'm more thinking now that he should stay at FB but look to have some plays designed where he plays first receiver or whatever, just get the guy involved but also get his outsides on the same page.

Halves and backrowers defensive issues: Most of the early tries were numbering up issue by the inside back rower, Katoa particularly was horrendous as was Asi. Complete and utter breakdown from the whole side right through to the wing. That A gap defender behind marker needs to push harder though as that B gap is waiting inside alot and its the perpetual domino effect of waiting for your insides to come that leads to the jamming and overall horrendous defence, Shaun Johnson is just as bad as Asi. Tohu Harris when he came on did provide some stability I believe.

Tohu Harris: The Setup of Afoa for that line break was enough for me to see his value, probably the first forward this year to put someone through the line. Curran has struggled to ball play as well as jazz, his experience really showed and created another threat. Welcome back. I would keep him at Lock or what sometime was doing the prop role where Lodge plays first receiver but with a whole ton more smarts and feel than lodge. His overall presence I think will benefit the team.

Potential: This team showed in the second half it can ball play, they are after all some genuine footy players, the set on the final 15min mark of the second half was the most creative Ive seen this year, they were skipping to the edges, short side plays, go back to the middle. I feel its like this team is starting to wake up. I dont know probably rose tinted glasses but something clicked for this team in that second half.

The offload: It is one of the most undervalued tools in todays game but it generates so much for our team, we need offloads to generate go forward, we can threaten in broken play, of course high risk high reward but every offload lately has been a positive benefit, now guys like Katoa should never think of offloading but I feel like jazz and lodge use it well most of the time. I would like to see more of it but maybe I'm asking too much of this team right now.

 

[Horriors2013]

Went through a detailed re watch of the game. Some interesting developments revealed themselves in this game.

Murchie: Was a revelation on the edge, broke the initial tackle and drove through the line every time he got the ball, I would say he deserves another shot next to Shaun Johnson, he was damaging which is a first for backrowers this year because not one of them have had an impact offensively.

Stats:
80 min for 107 metres, 12 hit ups and 45 tackles. Thats a pretty good stat line up there with an Aitken type performance. I feel he may have earned a shot at holding down the right edge position.

Lussick: Has copped alot of flack on here including by myself but upon further review was solid, gave good front foot ball, grew into the game in the second half, he was having a positive effect on the game and the halves were getting the ball where they wanted, interestingly he kicked out of dummy half on a solo decision but he has a good boot and ended up being not too bad. I like him, I like him enough to keep him on the bench, I think he and jazz worked well as a rotation but if egan is back then I think Jazz beats him for the 14 spot, but I think a good signing and reliable cover.

Reeces best game this year: Something changed at the end of the 1st half, its almost like he said he had enough of whatever the team was doing to that point. In the second half he was damn near involved on every set, his runs out of dummy half were great for the teams energy and go forward. He really engaged himself the way we hope he would in that second half and despite the errors it was more about his energy and effort. I hope it is a turning point for him as what I saw from him 2nd half is what we need for 80 mins. He called for the ball and played first receiver a ton which is why I felt the change to halves would work, I'm more thinking now that he should stay at FB but look to have some plays designed where he plays first receiver or whatever, just get the guy involved but also get his outsides on the same page.

Halves and backrowers defensive issues: Most of the early tries were numbering up issue by the inside back rower, Katoa particularly was horrendous as was Asi. Complete and utter breakdown from the whole side right through to the wing. That A gap defender behind marker needs to push harder though as that B gap is waiting inside alot and its the perpetual domino effect of waiting for your insides to come that leads to the jamming and overall horrendous defence, Shaun Johnson is just as bad as Asi. Tohu Harris when he came on did provide some stability I believe.

Tohu Harris: The Setup of Afoa for that line break was enough for me to see his value, probably the first forward this year to put someone through the line. Curran has struggled to ball play as well as jazz, his experience really showed and created another threat. Welcome back. I would keep him at Lock or what sometime was doing the prop role where Lodge plays first receiver but with a whole ton more smarts and feel than lodge. His overall presence I think will benefit the team.

Potential: This team showed in the second half it can ball play, they are after all some genuine footy players, the set on the final 15min mark of the second half was the most creative Ive seen this year, they were skipping to the edges, short side plays, go back to the middle. I feel its like this team is starting to wake up. I dont know probably rose tinted glasses but something clicked for this team in that second half.

The offload: It is one of the most undervalued tools in todays game but it generates so much for our team, we need offloads to generate go forward, we can threaten in broken play, of course high risk high reward but every offload lately has been a positive benefit, now guys like Katoa should never think of offloading but I feel like jazz and lodge use it well most of the time. I would like to see more of it but maybe I'm asking too much of this team right now.

I really appreciate a well-formatted, detailed review.
I think you've nailed the defensive weakness. Katoa seems to be behind the play. He's left choosing 1 of 3 targets and ends up getting none. GAP A is the problem. Asi has done well marking his opposite. He does come out of the line, but when I've seen him do it he's been successful to my heart's relief. But when the ball us moving sideways we stay compressed. Bad communication I think. By who, I don't know. I suspect Asi.

 

[Brother Faisal]

I really appreciate a well-formatted, detailed review.
I think you've nailed the defensive weakness. Katoa seems to be behind the play. He's left choosing 1 of 3 targets and ends up getting none. GAP A is the problem. Asi has done well marking his opposite. He does come out of the line, but when I've seen him do it he's been successful to my heart's relief. But when the ball us moving sideways we stay compressed. Bad communication I think. By who, I don't know. I suspect Asi.

Im not sure whos talking tbh but im abit more confident knowing Aitken and Harris will be on the edges to help out and fix these issues

 

[Dannevegas]

So this game has me feeling some weird pride but also some disappointment.

Obviously the first half was a WTF am I watching moment. We dominated the first few minutes and I thought we looked strong and then off errors and penalties they scored try after try and our wings leaked.
Then with a flash of brilliance at the end of the first half the Warriors keep your heart in the game as they do. All us fans at the stadium celebrated like we were in front haha

The Rabbits try in the second half was questionable (held up!) . And as it happened I had just finished telling my sisters about one of the games where we chased the game back against the Bulldogs I think and we just lost the game due to a missed conversion. Funny how the game sorta played out like that - missing by just two to tie.

Anyway the second half was like watching a completely different team! The team we CAN be. The team we SHOULD be! It was the best I’ve seen our attack in a while! The creativity and execution and team work was amazing! The tries were amazing! Also can I just say Buntys big run! Woo! Wanted him to go all the way!

When it was like 32-12 the Warriors walked back to our end and looked up at us fans. We were all standing and cheering and screaming loud - Shaun Johnson, Lodge, Jazz… all of them looked up at us and shook their heads and nodded as if to say they could feel how upset we were but also how much we love them and from there they lifted. Every time we scored and they came back down we would do the same thing. And I have to say it was one of the most special moments ever at a game. Connecting with the players like that and the rest of the fans.

Also as much as I love Kodi- I’m glad they have him now. Once again no effort or passion.

Focusing back on us - I want to see us play like that - every half - both halves - every game. Because if we do we are a chance to win every single one of them. I know we are young. I know we have injuries. But when we genuinely have the belief we can do magical things. Honouring our mana is vital for this team.

I think we can make the 8 and Mark Tookey who happened to be sitting in front of us thinks we can too.
There needs to be some serious improvements on defence on the wings but I really just think we need to have the attitude that we deserve to win games.

One more thing that was cool - when we were out in our jerseys - I couldn’t begin to count the amount of people who genuinely came up to us or shouted GO THE WARRIORS! More than any other team. Nice to feel the aroha!

So while we lost I’m strangely proud.

Onto the next week! UP THE WAHS!
Have a great week everyone ❤️

Reading this, is giving me a 10 game winning streak coming up, vibes.

 

[gREVUS]

In those other two victories we didn’t score many tries ourselves in the second half because I theorise we showed our hand early

My theory is just hunchwork does it not resonate with you ?

Sorry Wrighty, it doesnt with me.
Its often said on here. League is a simple game.
It doesnt take great, involved strategies to win.
Great Défense and keeping an eye out for the weakness shown by your opposition's defence is really all that is required.
Sure there are set plays etc, but they dont get used often because of their predictable nature. In fact its really only the shape of the ball and the often times, randomness of the bounce that keeps people kicking as much as they do. Other wise it would be run it up the guts for 2 plays and then shift it wide as required.
As an example the most dangerous time for both teams is when there is a break down in play and u see a loose ball. At that stage no one knows what will happen next. It doesnt matter who lost it only whos first to the ball. How often do you see a try off a lose ball, or a runner off to the other end and called back only to find the ref got it wrong. These are the sphincter moments, a coach can only train one thing for and that is intensity.
A team with intensity will chase every opportunity, one without will stand and watch while the other team makes shit happen.

IMO the reason that Souths went to the centre is their forwards started to achieve penetration when Lodge and Addin Fonua-Blake went off and this is considered easier to do than running it wide. No big strategy involved.

edit : any strategy talk assumes that the players can already handle the basics of catch and pass, correct play of the ball and positional awareness on both attack and defence.