General Religious Discussion Thread

[Worried2Death]

No I don't accept that. Push yourself to have an opinion and an answer even if it changes many times. It is your duty to have a view as an intellectual. There is no such thing as a wrong view as long as you are open to your view evolving.

I take an agnostic position, I don't accept the necessity to have an opinion when it can't possibly be informed empirically, why can't we just accept we don't and can't know wrighty

 

[Inruin]

I take an agnostic position, I don't accept the necessity to have an opinion when it can't possibly be informed empirically, why can't we just accept we don't and can't know wrighty

But you can have that position. No one is stopping you. Others have a different one not based on being informed empirically. I guess that's why it's called faith.

 

[Worried2Death]

But you can have that position. No one is stopping you. Others have a different one not based on being informed empirically. I guess that's why it's called faith.

Yeah but wrighty said it's our duty to take a position one way or the other as intellectuals lol

 

[Inruin]

Yeah but wrighty said it's our duty to take a position one way or the other as intellectuals lol

Ah, I see. Haven't you done that though?

 

[Worried2Death]

Ah, I see. Haven't you done that though?

No, what have I chosen? No gods or certainty about anything, doesn't seem like a choice

 

[Inruin]

No, what have I chosen? No gods or certainty about anything, doesn't seem like a choice

But that's still a choice. You choose not to form an opinion on it because of a lack of empirical data which is never going to be available. You choose not to have faith. And that's fine. I'm in that boat sort of. I try and live my life as best as I can, pretty much set by morals and guidelines that are probably in line with a Christian based framework without having an overall belief in an overarching higher power or god.

 

[Worried2Death]

But that's still a choice. You choose not to form an opinion on it because of a lack of empirical data which is never going to be a available. You choose not to have faith. And that's fine. I'm in that boat sort of. I try and live my life as best as I can, pretty much set by morals and guidelines that are probably in line with a Christian based framework without having an overall belief in an overarching higher power or god.

We're probably talking semantics, I don't know if not having faith is a choice, not believing in Santa is a choice then. If we ever get an empirical answer to How we'll need to invent a new language to answer Why, according to Bertrand Russell in my favourite book Why I'm Not a Christian. But he was a confirmed atheist, they're a bunch of know it alls too.

 

[Inruin]

We're probably talking semantics, I don't know if not having faith is a choice, not believing in Santa is a choice then. If we ever get an empirical answer to How we'll need to invent a new language to answer Why, according to Bertrand Russell in my favourite book Why I'm Not a Christian.

Not quite. I don't think that is quite the same thing, unless of course you are a child believing in Santa and not knowing or understanding how the presents got in your Santa sack or under the tree. Obviously as you got older things may have changed. Perhaps, one day the secret will be revealed of who left the magical present of existence for us. Or perhaps you get a small amount of peace and warmth from the thought of Santa and that is what matters?

 

[Worried2Death]

Not quite. I don't think that is quite the same thing, unless of course you are a child believing in Santa and not knowing or understanding how the presents got in your Santa sack or under the tree. Obviously as you got older things may have changed. Perhaps, one day the secret will be revealed of who left the magical present of existence for us. Or perhaps you get a small amount of peace and warmth from the thought of Santa and that is what matters?

Yeah I meant as a grown adult. I wish I stilĺ believed, I lost my faith when I caught dad drinking Santa's beer and eating Rudolph's scorched almonds

 

[ryno]

Grew up Roman Catholic, going to church every week etc. With all the good values that are taught I really struggled with the doom and gloom, hell, demons and end of days side. Gave me massive anxiety issues as a kid. Wasn’t until I was a teenager I started to think a bit differently about faith and beliefs. When I decided to not believe in certain things it felt so good as it was was such a massive weight lifted off my thoughts.

 

[Paulo24]

Grew up Roman Catholic, going to church every week etc. With all the good values that are taught I really struggled with the doom and gloom, hell, demons and end of days side. Gave me massive anxiety issues as a kid. Wasn’t until I was a teenager I started to think a bit differently about faith and beliefs. When I decided to not believe in certain things it felt so good as it was was such a massive weight lifted off my thoughts.

Was it over emphasised? Did you they talk about security in God? Real interesting…

 

[matiunz]

Grew up Roman Catholic, going to church every week etc. With all the good values that are taught I really struggled with the doom and gloom, hell, demons and end of days side. Gave me massive anxiety issues as a kid. Wasn’t until I was a teenager I started to think a bit differently about faith and beliefs. When I decided to not believe in certain things it felt so good as it was was such a massive weight lifted off my thoughts.

I had an experience when I was young that made me seriously question organised religion as a whole, one was talking to a Muslim and finding out theirs and the Christian god were the same- seemed pointless arguing over interpretations when likely none were 100% right, 2nd was books being omitted and parts being rewritten over time- this struck me as selective interpretation and any message from said religion was edited an sensored which made no sense for people to hang off exact wording.
Also remember religious instruction in primary school where it was started out as God being all loving and all forgiving- then proceeded from there to tell about all the people he got angry at and ‘tested’. Remember getting made to leave after being told God forgave everyone, which I then asked why was there a hell then? Innocent question but learnt the answer to genuine questioning was to not argue.

 

[Paulo24]

I had an experience when I was young that made me seriously question organised religion as a whole, one was talking to a Muslim and finding out theirs and the Christian god were the same- seemed pointless arguing over interpretations when likely none were 100% right, 2nd was books being omitted and parts being rewritten over time- this struck me as selective interpretation and any message from said religion was edited an sensored which made no sense for people to hang off exact wording.
Also remember religious instruction in primary school where it was started out as God being all loving and all forgiving- then proceeded from there to tell about all the people he got angry at and ‘tested’. Remember getting made to leave after being told God forgave everyone, which I then asked why was there a hell then? Innocent question but learnt the answer to genuine questioning was to not argue.

There’s lots to unpack in these statements.

Is the God of different religions the same God?
Islam and Christianity? It’s not as easy as a yes vs no answer. Yes the Abrahamic religions believe in one God (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) but do they believe the same things about that God? I would say that the character of Allah in the Koran is different to that pictured in the Bible.

The issue for religions is really Grace. Undeserved favour from God. In Islam and most religions God or the gods must be appeased, through service, sacrifice, obedience, commitment, good works in order to gain Gods favour and have eternal life. Often God in this sense is seen as a punisher, fear and torment is the motivation.
Christianity rightly understood bases our relationship on grace. Jesus perfect life wins for us acceptance on the bases of what He has achieved and when we accept that He has died for the punishment due to us, we receive what He earned. We then serve God not to gain Gods favour but because we have been accepted, loved and given the gift of salvation from God.

It may seem small but the implications are massive. The pictures of God and service to God are radically different and the journey is different too. This Grace vs works religious approach is at the heart of many issues.

 

[Wrighty]

Yeah but wrighty said it's our duty to take a position one way or the other as intellectuals lol

It is not my original thought. Many of my concepts come from books.
In the Road Less Travelled the number one best seller by M Scott Peck he closes the last chapter by telling his readers it is their duty as an informed, mature, advanced thinker to form a view on all of life's issues and not to sit on the fence on anything. He argues someone who is agnostic about anything just hasn't thought about it long enough or researched it long enough. Or thirdly that they don't feel brave enough to join dots together and conjecture a view based on them based partly on their own guesswork and gut feel. Be brave. Back your gut feel. Make big calls. People in their middle ages need to be leaders in the community and the only way society advances is if it has a viewpoint and many competing viewpoints. It is even better if most people don't agree because then vital debate can happen. But you can't debate anything with someone who can see both the pros and cons of each major decision in life. Be the leader of yourself. You are your own CEO of you. Make some big calls. Press and keep pressing. Don't accept from yourself that "you will never know the answer" because the world's scientists can't prove it either way. Don't be afraid of being wrong and don't feel pressure to be correct all the time because the correct answer is "We don't know."
The correct answer is "we don't know if god exists or not". The correct answer is that "we don't know if there is an intelligent designer one way or the other". But what does that answer buy you. What position does it put you in.
will God let you into heaven as an agnostic or put you into hell with all the atheists (if god exists and hell exists).
What does it buy you to have no view on whether there is an intelligent designer and be agnostic about it. I would argue you are far better off either believing in an intelligent deisgner or absolutely rejecting the idea and that sitting on the fence is the worst choice.
If you reject an intelligent designer and God and accept atheism whole heartedly then you can embrace all the advantages and disadvantages that come with being an atheist. You are more living life as an atheist than an agnostic. You have no regrets or whimsical thoughts in other directions. And I am talking about true atheism rather than modern antheists who prefer to call themselves agnostics even though they are atheists for all intents and purposes.

I have only ever met one true agnostic online. All the other agnostics were very hard atheists. Which are you really. Be really honest with yourself. Most likely you have made a choice if you let it bubble to the surface and meditate om the language you use e.g. bringing Santa into a conversation about intelligent designers tells me you do a have firm position on all these topics. Embrace it be it. Own it. Own your view. And press into your view until you believe boots and all.
As a christian I have had to challenge myself to believe all of the bible instead of just the parts that make intellectual sense to me and cherry picking.
Take a stand on all life's big issues. Not my thought. Blame M Scott Peck.

 

[Gizzyfan]

Science is juxtaposed against religion for most people. About twenty years ago Religious folk tried to bridge the gap through the intelligent designer concept pointing out how unlikely it would be for nature to create our universe or even planet earth,

Despite being religious I have never personally bought into intelligent design. I am comfortable that randomness could have accounted for a lot of our universe, A quick google says:
"On 4 November 2013, astronomers reported, based on Kepler space mission data, that there could be as many as 40 billion Earth-sized planets orbiting in the habitable zones of Sun-like stars and red dwarf stars within the Milky Way Galaxy."

As an aside comment...Jesus and God were very much initially the God of Israel in the old testament. In the new testament he becomes a God for the whole world.
Mark that. A God for the whole world and not Worlds with a s. God and the bible does not believe in multiple planet earths or alien life form.

The other argument for Intelligent Design is to counter evolution. Can all the different species really have evolved from a slug or amoeba from a pond. A Human's DNA structure is profound and as complex as the universe itself and the intelligent designer community say Humans and each major species type was designed.
That argument I am more open to,

 

[Worried2Death]

It is not my original thought. Many of my concepts come from books.
In the Road Less Travelled the number one best seller by M Scott Peck he closes the last chapter by telling his readers it is their duty as an informed, mature, advanced thinker to form a view on all of life's issues and not to sit on the fence on anything. He argues someone who is agnostic about anything just hasn't thought about it long enough or researched it long enough. Or thirdly that they don't feel brave enough to join dots together and conjecture a view based on them based partly on their own guesswork and gut feel. Be brave. Back your gut feel. Make big calls. People in their middle ages need to be leaders in the community and the only way society advances is if it has a viewpoint and many competing viewpoints. It is even better if most people don't agree because then vital debate can happen. But you can't debate anything with someone who can see both the pros and cons of each major decision in life. Be the leader of yourself. You are your own CEO of you. Make some big calls. Press and keep pressing. Don't accept from yourself that "you will never know the answer" because the world's scientists can't prove it either way. Don't be afraid of being wrong and don't feel pressure to be correct all the time because the correct answer is "We don't know."
The correct answer is "we don't know if god exists or not". The correct answer is that "we don't know if there is an intelligent designer one way or the other". But what does that answer buy you. What position does it put you in.
will God let you into heaven as an agnostic or put you into hell with all the atheists (if god exists and hell exists).
What does it buy you to have no view on whether there is an intelligent designer and be agnostic about it. I would argue you are far better off either believing in an intelligent deisgner or absolutely rejecting the idea and that sitting on the fence is the worst choice.
If you reject an intelligent designer and God and accept atheism whole heartedly then you can embrace all the advantages and disadvantages that come with being an atheist. You are more living life as an atheist than an agnostic. You have no regrets or whimsical thoughts in other directions. And I am talking about true atheism rather than modern antheists who prefer to call themselves agnostics even though they are atheists for all intents and purposes.

I have only ever met one true agnostic online. All the other agnostics were very hard atheists. Which are you really. Be really honest with yourself. Most likely you have made a choice if you let it bubble to the surface and meditate om the language you use e.g. bringing Santa into a conversation about intelligent designers tells me you do a have firm position on all these topics. Embrace it be it. Own it. Own your view. And press into your view until you believe boots and all.
As a christian I have had to challenge myself to believe all of the bible instead of just the parts that make intellectual sense to me and cherry picking.
Take a stand on all life's big issues. Not my thought. Blame M Scott Peck.

Well I can't say I agree with Pecky there, I can't force faith or atheism if I'm not totally convinced either way, seems like an intellectual dishonesty, the kind that leads to confirmation bias for the atheist and apophenia for the spiritualist. But for the sake of debate I align more with the atheist position because "I don't know" isn't much of a discussion.

What do you think of M Scott's argument wrighty, do you tend to agree or disagree that a firm choice is necessary?

 

[wizards rage]

It is not my original thought. Many of my concepts come from books.
In the Road Less Travelled the number one best seller by M Scott Peck he closes the last chapter by telling his readers it is their duty as an informed, mature, advanced thinker to form a view on all of life's issues and not to sit on the fence on anything. He argues someone who is agnostic about anything just hasn't thought about it long enough or researched it long enough. Or thirdly that they don't feel brave enough to join dots together and conjecture a view based on them based partly on their own guesswork and gut feel. Be brave. Back your gut feel. Make big calls. People in their middle ages need to be leaders in the community and the only way society advances is if it has a viewpoint and many competing viewpoints. It is even better if most people don't agree because then vital debate can happen. But you can't debate anything with someone who can see both the pros and cons of each major decision in life. Be the leader of yourself. You are your own CEO of you. Make some big calls. Press and keep pressing. Don't accept from yourself that "you will never know the answer" because the world's scientists can't prove it either way. Don't be afraid of being wrong and don't feel pressure to be correct all the time because the correct answer is "We don't know."
The correct answer is "we don't know if god exists or not". The correct answer is that "we don't know if there is an intelligent designer one way or the other". But what does that answer buy you. What position does it put you in.
will God let you into heaven as an agnostic or put you into hell with all the atheists (if god exists and hell exists).
What does it buy you to have no view on whether there is an intelligent designer and be agnostic about it. I would argue you are far better off either believing in an intelligent deisgner or absolutely rejecting the idea and that sitting on the fence is the worst choice.
If you reject an intelligent designer and God and accept atheism whole heartedly then you can embrace all the advantages and disadvantages that come with being an atheist. You are more living life as an atheist than an agnostic. You have no regrets or whimsical thoughts in other directions. And I am talking about true atheism rather than modern antheists who prefer to call themselves agnostics even though they are atheists for all intents and purposes.

I have only ever met one true agnostic online. All the other agnostics were very hard atheists. Which are you really. Be really honest with yourself. Most likely you have made a choice if you let it bubble to the surface and meditate om the language you use e.g. bringing Santa into a conversation about intelligent designers tells me you do a have firm position on all these topics. Embrace it be it. Own it. Own your view. And press into your view until you believe boots and all.
As a christian I have had to challenge myself to believe all of the bible instead of just the parts that make intellectual sense to me and cherry picking.
Take a stand on all life's big issues. Not my thought. Blame M Scott Peck.

I love this post and it got me thinking…

I’m 100% scientifically focused and a very logical thinker. I am certain religion is a human construct however regard the possibility of a god as seperate to religion.

Science can’t explain everything. It can never actually explain why there actually is a universe rather than the more likely and default position of nothing at all.

And then the unimaginable complexity.

I am very open to either an ‘evolution’ type infinite attempts at the physics of our universe model or it must be intelligent design. It cannot be a random one shot universe.

It’s impossible to determine which of the 2. My scientific mind leans towards a scientific solution but it would be unscientific to rule out the god possibility.

Finally, you quote:

their duty as an informed, mature, advanced thinker to form a view on all of life's issues

I question if anyone can be advanced enough thinkers to really stake a strong position on the ideas that the worlds leading minds are still trying to work out?

 

[wizards rage]

AI (chat gpt4) was asked to come up with a new 10 commandments. (It came up with 11):

1. Thou shalt practice empathy and understanding.

2. Thou shalt cultivate gratitude.

3. Thou shalt be honest and truthful.

4. Thou shalt be kind and compassionate.

5. Thou shalt respect the autonomy of others.

6. Thou shalt practice forgiveness.

7. Thou shalt be humble and open to learning.

8. Thou shalt maintain a sense of humor.

9. Thou shalt be generous and giving.

10. Thou shalt strive for balance in life.

11. Thou shalt be a steward of the Earth.


Looks like there is hope AI won’t wipe us out the first chance it gets.

AI puts its mind to writing the 10 commandments

AI, like ChatGPT, won’t destroy humanity, but an Artificial General Intelligence might.

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[Worried2Death]

AI (chat gpt4) was asked to come up with a new 10 commandments. (It came up with 11):

1. Thou shalt practice empathy and understanding.

2. Thou shalt cultivate gratitude.

3. Thou shalt be honest and truthful.

4. Thou shalt be kind and compassionate.

5. Thou shalt respect the autonomy of others.

6. Thou shalt practice forgiveness.

7. Thou shalt be humble and open to learning.

8. Thou shalt maintain a sense of humor.

9. Thou shalt be generous and giving.

10. Thou shalt strive for balance in life.

11. Thou shalt be a steward of the Earth.


Looks like there is hope AI won’t wipe us out the first chance it gets.

AI puts its mind to writing the 10 commandments

AI, like ChatGPT, won’t destroy humanity, but an Artificial General Intelligence might.

www.nzherald.co.nz

Finally a deity I can get behind, AI Akbar!

 

[wizards rage]

My interesting thoughts at the moment:

I’ve been researching the transducer theory about conciousness. It’s based on the problem where the brain is obviously material but it is just as obvious that the mind has immaterial abilities. Mind vs brain. It proposes that our brains are transducers that tap into something bigger to get our soul/ consciousness/ etc that brains, as organic computers shouldn’t be able to do. Sort of like our brains operate a ‘wifi’ into a universal ‘cloud’ at some subatomic or universal level for our higher level functions.

Left field thinking! But it could explains concepts that we can’t currently explain - blindsight (the ability of some blind people to be aware of objects in their environment that they cannot consciously see), terminal lucidity (the brief period of clear consciousness that sometimes precedes death in dementia patients), brain functions such as hallucinations, dreams, lucidity. Mental diseases such as schizophrenia, among many others.

And lastly - could it explain heaven…?

The whole theory could be laughable - there is nothing proven. But it’s an interesting idea for you deep thinkers within the forum. Check out this longish article for more:

Your Brain Is Not a Computer. It Is a Transducer

A new theory of how the brain works — neural transduction theory — might upend everything we know about consciousness and the universe itself.

www.discovermagazine.com

Give me your learned opinions Worried2Death Wrighty