General Religious Discussion Thread

[ramps]

I can't move past the fact that "God"supposedly created this vastly chaotic but perfect universe, our earth - but for some reason he's supposedly hung up on a species - he created sinning, changing gender or sucking a dick. That's utterly utterly ludicrous of the bloke.

It's very hard to not feel like the human ego created religion, as a crutch to avoid confronting the meaninglessness of each of our existence, while lacking the knowledge and science to provide the answers. Humanity seems to need religion to provide comfort from that pretty stark reality of our existence.

The religion / the bible whatever really just does seems like some guide book to life written by some well intentioned chancers - that humanity ran subsequently ran with in some very very weird ways.

All the sinning & repenting fairytales seem to just be an excuse for human desires, and a method of keeping society on an even keel

I just can't cop that human's are anything but the species on this particular planet that have ended up being the smartest (and most destructive)
Afterall from space - (not far from our planet at all) - humanity merely looks like bacteria ruining the planet.

The leap of ego to think we're the special ones is pretty mind blowing



Let's not even discuss how goddam ridiculous it is how we worked up we all get on 13 "Warriors" chasing a ball around a field.

Nah bro he created you as in you with some sort of conjunction with emotions so that you can make decisions for yourself. Some people get gifts such as being an athlete, singer, high IQ but its up to you how you use it.

For someone such as yourself, this is how i would explain it.

think of it as the game of life. Lets say God created this game. Rules and guidelines Are all set out for you to succeed. You are a unique game piece with a long family history and story which is lets say your attributes which can affect your skills as you go through this journey, good or bad.

You set your goals or dreams as you go and God puts the challenges ahead of you. Hes sent you a clue (jesus) who will be your guide and tell you what you need to be careful for, he will heal you along the way as your health, faith and strength are your life bars. He will show you miracles and he will warn you about events you have to be careful for. Once your time is up, God will add up your score and you will either pass or fail.

Explained it this way to one of my mates a while ago and seemed to make an impact and got his game back on the right path.

 

[Juju]

I

Nah bro he created you as in you with some sort of conjunction with emotions so that you can make decisions for yourself. Some people get gifts such as being an athlete, singer, high IQ but its up to you how you use it.

For someone such as yourself, this is how i would explain it.

think of it as the game of life. Lets say God created this game. Rules and guidelines Are all set out for you to succeed. You are a unique game piece with a long family history and story which is lets say your attributes which can affect your skills as you go through this journey, good or bad.

You set your goals or dreams as you go and God puts the challenges ahead of you. Hes sent you a clue (jesus) who will be your guide and tell you what you need to be careful for, he will heal you along the way as your health, faith and strength are your life bars. He will show you miracles and he will warn you about events you have to be careful for. Once your time is up, God will add up your score and you will either pass or fail.

Explained it this way to one of my mates a while ago and seemed to make an impact and got his game back on the right path.

I'm sorry but that's not enough at all for me and my brain.
Why would a God be petty enough to keep an arbitrary score on me to enter heaven?
If I were gay, me being with another man is enough to keep me out of heaven? from a god that created that created this all. That's quite a step.

I'm happy you find comfort in it all - maybe go a bit softly on LGBT though.

 

[ramps]

I

I'm sorry but that's not enough at all for me and my brain.
Why would a God be petty enough to keep an arbitrary score on me to enter heaven?
If I were gay, me being with another man is enough to keep me out of heaven? from a god that created that created this all. That's quite a step.

I'm happy you find comfort in it all - maybe go a bit softly on LGBT though.

Hes given you the rules and the guidelines. Upto you whether you follow them and stay on a proven path or go the opposite way just to see what happens

 

[Juju]

Hes given you the rules and the guidelines. Upto you whether you follow them and stay on a proven path or go the opposite way just to see what happens

He's not given the rules at all. It can't be proved at all what the rules are at all, or where they come from.
It brings you comfort, so good for you. But I really can't see how being a bigot on LGBT provides you special access to heaven over the rest of the species.

 

[ramps]

He's not given the rules at all. It can't be proved at all what the rules are at all, or where they come from.
It brings you comfort, so good for you. But I really can't see how being a bigot on LGBT provides you special access to heaven over the rest of the species.

Game of life reference again: Being gay may be a decrease in your overall score because you decided to disobey the rules. The influence on certain decisions would affect the other players in the game dramatically and your faith bars lose life.

Doesnt mean to say that you cant fix that. You get enough good scores and may still get there but you must reset (Repent or Baptism) and respect his remaining objectives While doing good deeds. So yeah, theres hope in being gay and going to heaven in my eyes. But your influence could have a huge negative impact to your faith/life and those influenced by you and possibly my path as well

 

[Bluecat again]

While not wanting to upset anyone, please take this in the light hearted manner it is intended...

Sometimes I like to think we were put here as an experiment by some superior race. Just to see how we'd act/react to certain stimuli.

As a control in the experiment, you have Storm/All Blacks fans. Always consistent, always winning.

As one of the more ludicrous variables - we have warriors (and black caps) fans - who never know what team will show up on any given day.

And then as I work my way through the logic, I realise the aforementioned superior race who put us here are some sick and twisted assholes...

Have you read the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy trilogy?
It was the mice who had us created and they are studying us.
And the answer to life, the universe, and everything is there too.

It makes as much sense as anything else.

I think that I believe in a god. I work the Alcoholics Anonymous program and part of that is coming to believe in a power greater than yourself. But for me that isn't a religious god. It is something that makes it all work and gives everything a purpose. I don't know what god is or how it works but I know that it does. Its too hard to quantify. I would drive myself mad trying to work it all out so I don't. I just accept that it is. I have seen too many uncanny things happen over the years not to believe.

And the more I try to be a decent human being the more I see god working around us.

Religion I can't do. I grew up with a Christian religion and it doesn't make sense. Jesus said that we needed to do things differently and to be inclusive and good to each other.
And organised Christian religions are based on this but they seem to have taken all the hate and discrimination and rantings of sun baked nutters from the old testament and worked it in with the new to create a divisive way of living.
My religion says you're wrong so I think you're wrong even though I don't know you or even why. Bizarre
My parents took a lot of comfort from it and some of my friends do too and good on them but I just can't do it

Just believe that you have a place here and be good to each other. The rest is just noise

 

[Geoff Public]

He's not given the rules at all. It can't be proved at all what the rules are at all, or where they come from.
It brings you comfort, so good for you. But I really can't see how being a bigot on LGBT provides you special access to heaven over the rest of the species.

There's been a lot missed lately. I suppose that happens when people demand higher standards of others than they're capable of.

 

[allanrobert]

I do agree with ramps. For me, it looks like a game where everyone has got their talents and now it depends on how these people will use their powers. The latest research states that we all may live in virtual reality, which makes so much sense to me. I know that even in a pentecostal church sometimes you can hear this kind of opinion. You can think that god is the main developer and all things happening in the world are updates and new seasons, and if you follow the developer's rules, you will get your reward in the end.

 

[Wrighty]

Hi

No Flames please for the following post even if you are also a christian and feel have the facts wrong.

As promised wanted to share my view on the final question people often ponder with when it comes to religion and that is the issue of their multiple religions in the world.

1) Doesn't it discredit christianity if 5 or 6 other religions have 100s of millions of followers and are equally convinced they are right?

2) Why are their multiple religions?

3) Given their a multiple religions in the world why should any one choose christianity over any of the others?

Disclaimer - this is just my opinion,

ANSWERS
1) Yes the fact there are multiple religions in this world does dis credit Christianity and makes it much harder to convert people than if Chistianity was the only religion

2) The reason why there are multiple religions in this world is linked to our instincts.
Carl Jung believed we are all born with instincts. How to be a mother. How to die. How to be a hero and instinctively what a hero looks like. He also suggested religion is an instinct.
It is in our instincts for most people to want to worship something and believe in something bigger being out there. It is no coincidence that many of the religions have similar protocols eg prayer is not unique to christiantiy.
Because it has been in our DNA to have religion humans through the millenia have created religions to fulfill this instinct. They have worshipped the Sun, Whales have been worshipped, A golden bull. A Volcano.

3) Why is Christianity more believable than any other religion
a) there is strong historical records for many of accounts of the bible. Eg there a records of a Jesus of Nazareth walking on earth.
b) The New testament validates and fulfills the prophecy of the old testament that a messiah was coming.
Some atheists believe the bible is a work of fiction and a deliberate work of fiction to deceive the public. And some believe it was written very quickly by three of four people in a few months shacked up in a house somewhere.
The Bible was actually written over nearly 1800 years. The book of Genesis was written about 1200 BC and Genesis (and all the subsequent old testament books) foretell of a messiah and saviour coming.
The actual coming of Jesus fufilled this prophecy AFTER the old testament was written and provides credibility for the old testament.
You could, if you wanted to, argue or imagine that the new testament authors read the old testament and its prophecy of a messiah and then deceptively invented the new testament and wrote it with deliberate lies and fantasy so that it would precisely and intricately match the fortelling of a messiah coming that the old testament promised.
Such coordinated lies would be logistically close to impossible to pull off as the new testament is 20 odd different books published at different times over a 150 year period after the death of christ.
In fact there were so many "holy" texts and books supporting christianity by different authors many decades apart that they held the council of nicaea in 325 AD to decide what books would be canon and what books apochraphyl and the first bible as such only emerged afterwards.

The concept of three deceptive liars scurrying away in a house for three months to write the new testament isn't logistically possible or supported by any of the historical accounts or datings of the books of the bible.

That completes the 3 or 4 different religious questions that I wanted to share.

Thanks for listening and again no Flames if you disagree.

 

[wizards rage]

1) Doesn't it discredit christianity if 5 or 6 other religions have 100s of millions of followers and are equally convinced they are right?

I think your correct that religion full stop is a basic human instinct with wanting to follow something greater than ourselves. I also think that people that include a god in their lives release a burden of responsibility by outsourcing it to their god. Plus they form a strong social bond to other religious people around a shared set of rules and standards. I read somewhere religious people are generally happier than others.

So overall, for religious people it serves them very well, fills a purpose and enhances their lives.

But wouldn’t a God who requires worship and allows entry to heaven ensure all humans have an unparalleled and unmatched opportunity to follow him through all encompassing access across space and time. There are humans in remote communities that haven’t even heard of Christianity…

 

[Wrighty]

I think your correct that religion full stop is a basic human instinct with wanting to follow something greater than ourselves. I also think that people that include a god in their lives release a burden of responsibility by outsourcing it to their god. Plus they form a strong social bond to other religious people around a shared set of rules and standards. I read somewhere religious people are generally happier than others.

So overall, for religious people it serves them very well, fills a purpose and enhances their lives.

But wouldn’t a God who requires worship and allows entry to heaven ensure all humans have an unparalleled and unmatched opportunity to follow him through all encompassing access across space and time. There are humans in remote communities that haven’t even heard of Christianity…

Christianity's strongest foothold today is Africa through the centuries of work through missionaries.
There is another religious question which is
"if someone lives in a remote village and never hears the good news in their life time, and hence never chooses either atheism or christianity do they go to heaven?"

Don;t know the answer to that one. Most christians I have spoken to say yes they would go to heaven if they had been a good person.

 

[Kestrel84]

2) The reason why there are multiple religions in this world is linked to our instincts.
Carl Jung believed we are all born with instincts. How to be a mother. How to die. How to be a hero and instinctively what a hero looks like. He also suggested religion is an instinct.
It is in our instincts for most people to want to worship something and believe in something bigger being out there. It is no coincidence that many of the religions have similar protocols eg prayer is not unique to christiantiy.
Because it has been in our DNA to have religion humans through the millenia have created religions to fulfill this instinct. They have worshipped the Sun, Whales have been worshipped, A golden bull. A Volcano.

I think your linkage of religion to instinct is your own subconscious trying to validate your personal beliefs.
We say things like how to be a mother (or father) is something instinctively known to us, but that isn't at all true. In both human society and the animal kingdom there are plenty of examples of this not being true, with babies of all species being subject to cruel and brutal rejection and treatment.

How to be a hero? What is a hero? There is no universal societal definition of a hero because it differs from culture to culture and what side of a conflict you fall on. One person's hero is another's villain, and so on.

How to die? I don't even know what that means - an honorable death? What is honorable? See above.

It isn't instinct that links cultures to multiple belief systems, it is hope. Hope is borne from what we know or experience is possible, and we all hope that there is some reward waiting around the corner for our efforts - whether those efforts be physical, mental, etc. The Christian heaven is a construct of what people hope and wish for through their mortal existence. The descriptions of heaven and the rewards this represents have changed over time through the whim of the people. Hope is an emotional crutch we develop and rely on to push through the many challenges life throws at us.
Religions have been centered around things such as the sun, a bull or a volcano because these things have had very real impacts on the day to day lives of many societies throughout history. The sun brings warmth, growth of crops, etc. A bull farming and sustenance, a volcano literally the life and death of those closest to it beyond the control of any person. Humans have prayed to these things in the hope that we will continue to see the benefits from them or that our fortunes may change.

Those things are far more real and worthy of worship in my mind than a belief system in what is commonly understood as "god". Religion is used as an assurance that what we believe and how we act is correct, despite the beliefs of others. We find a religion that closest mirrors our own beliefs and bias, or that we have been raised with, and entrust ourselves to it to validate ourselves and bring peace of mind. Look at the Andrew Tate thread to see how many people latch onto some fuckwits ideals and teachings because it helps validate their own hangups. Andrew Tate isn't a religion? Well it pretty much is to some people.

Religion, honor, heroes, meaning of death, all these things are taught by others and not something we instinctively know.

This isn't a flame/attack on you, Wrighty - this post is as much a therapeutic release as it is a response to the ideas you've put forward. I'm clearly no man of religion but I do respect the journey you're on to fully form and understand your own beliefs, whether they completely differ from mine or what. I hope you continue to apply your critical mind to this subject and find your own kind of enlightenment.

 

[wizards rage]

I think your linkage of religion to instinct is your own subconscious trying to validate your personal beliefs.

I think lots of things about religion feeds off human instinct.

Humans are pack animals. Look at all ape societies and there is an alpha male, a hierarchy with a dominant leader who provides the structure for the pack to live harmoniously. We are instinctively driven to form social hierarchies with a leader to control and guide us - gangs, workplaces, sports teams, government, etc.

Kings/ leaders figured out very early that if they had someone above themselves that everyone feared and respected but couldn’t criticise, it was the perfect way of outsource that control to a unbeatable alpha - while still retaining control as the head of the church

Sport is popular because it is the same instinctive pack mentality. That is why we instinctively love it. At the Warriors we even have our own alpha!

 

[Wrighty]

I think your linkage of religion to instinct is your own subconscious trying to validate your personal beliefs.
We say things like how to be a mother (or father) is something instinctively known to us, but that isn't at all true. In both human society and the animal kingdom there are plenty of examples of this not being true, with babies of all species being subject to cruel and brutal rejection and treatment.

How to be a hero? What is a hero? There is no universal societal definition of a hero because it differs from culture to culture and what side of a conflict you fall on. One person's hero is another's villain, and so on.

How to die? I don't even know what that means - an honorable death? What is honorable? See above.

It isn't instinct that links cultures to multiple belief systems, it is hope. Hope is borne from what we know or experience is possible, and we all hope that there is some reward waiting around the corner for our efforts - whether those efforts be physical, mental, etc. The Christian heaven is a construct of what people hope and wish for through their mortal existence. The descriptions of heaven and the rewards this represents have changed over time through the whim of the people. Hope is an emotional crutch we develop and rely on to push through the many challenges life throws at us.
Religions have been centered around things such as the sun, a bull or a volcano because these things have had very real impacts on the day to day lives of many societies throughout history. The sun brings warmth, growth of crops, etc. A bull farming and sustenance, a volcano literally the life and death of those closest to it beyond the control of any person. Humans have prayed to these things in the hope that we will continue to see the benefits from them or that our fortunes may change.

Those things are far more real and worthy of worship in my mind than a belief system in what is commonly understood as "god". Religion is used as an assurance that what we believe and how we act is correct, despite the beliefs of others. We find a religion that closest mirrors our own beliefs and bias, or that we have been raised with, and entrust ourselves to it to validate ourselves and bring peace of mind. Look at the Andrew Tate thread to see how many people latch onto some fuckwits ideals and teachings because it helps validate their own hangups. Andrew Tate isn't a religion? Well it pretty much is to some people.

Religion, honor, heroes, meaning of death, all these things are taught by others and not something we instinctively know.

This isn't a flame/attack on you, Wrighty - this post is as much a therapeutic release as it is a response to the ideas you've put forward. I'm clearly no man of religion but I do respect the journey you're on to fully form and understand your own beliefs, whether they completely differ from mine or what. I hope you continue to apply your critical mind to this subject and find your own kind of enlightenment.

There are always exceptions but very few mothers take parenting classes, yet most of them seem to be talented at nurturing their baby and loving it. Where does that knack come from? Carl Jung talks about Archetypes. We are aware in the back of our minds what an archetypal mother behaves like and can model ourselves after her. Archetypes are linked to instincts. The idea about instincts is based on his book and not my own idea.

The archetype for a hero is a swash buckling confident fellow who rescues the damsel in distress. There may come a time in our lives where we choose to follow that instinctive acrhetype and save somebody without asking for instruction on how to be a hero. Because we already have the idea of how to be a hero.

Archetypes are reinforced through movies, books, fairy tales, The movie Suoerman shows you what an archetype for a hero looks like.

Dieing.
I don't know much about what Jung was referring to here. But from what I can remember the process of dieing can be difficult to let go of life and make peace with leaving this world. Apparently according to Jung we have an instinctive script to help us pass over with grace.

Read his book for more. In my opinion every well read person should have this on their bookshelf "Carl Jung the Collective Unconsciousness". A leader in the development of modern psychiatry.

I really enjoyed your post Kestrel and I agree that hope is also a major driver of religion and people wanting to live for ever.

 

[wizards rage]

So here is my current thinking:

If you research the finely tuned universe, there are multiple complex factors that cause our universe to be how it is. If you ignore humans, which open up the evolution debate, there are many fundamental scientific principles that are so complex our brightest human minds still struggle to discover how they work and interact.

From a purely scientific view, our universe is extremely complex. Eg if even gravity was slightly weaker or stronger the universe just wouldn’t exist. And this is but one of many variables.

The universe is simply to complex for a single shot universe to randomly materialise how is has with its scientific complexity.

To me, the only reasons the universe can be as it is:

- there are multiple universes, each with unique sets of physics via some sort of random generation that through sheer numbers and luck it generated our ‘perfect’ universe
- the universe cycles through big bangs repeatedly and infinitely, each time with different sets of physics until we lucked on the current set up
- there is an intelligent designer that designed our physics. (I believe religion is a human construct but am open to a god via intelligent design)

All 3 possibilities are impossible to prove or disprove and therefore are equally as likely and unlikely. But I strongly believe it must be one of those 3.

I would like to invite the thought of those great philosophers Wrighty Worried2Death and any other contributors to help me understand the fundamental question of why our universe is how it is?




Ps… don’t start string theorying or multi dimensioning me W2D - to abstract and I work them back to the same 3 starting points 😉


Edit: The Odds against our early universe happening by random chance are 10 to the 10 to the 123rd to one, against. That’s from Roger Penrose, Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford.

 

[Jay M]

So here is my current thinking:

If you research the finely tuned universe, there are multiple complex factors that cause our universe to be how it is. If you ignore humans, which open up the evolution debate, there are many fundamental scientific principles that are so complex our brightest human minds still struggle to discover how they work and interact.

From a purely scientific view, our universe is extremely complex. Eg if even gravity was slightly weaker or stronger the universe just wouldn’t exist. And this is but one of many variables.

The universe is simply to complex for a single shot universe to randomly materialise how is has with its scientific complexity.

To me, the only reasons the universe can be as it is:

- there are multiple universes, each with unique sets of physics via some sort of random generation that through sheer numbers and luck it generated our ‘perfect’ universe
- the universe cycles through big bangs repeatedly and infinitely, each time with different sets of physics until we lucked on the current set up
- there is an intelligent designer that designed our physics. (I believe religion is a human construct but am open to a god via intelligent design)

All 3 possibilities are impossible to prove or disprove and therefore are equally as likely and unlikely. But I strongly believe it must be one of those 3.

I would like to invite the thought of those great philosophers Wrighty Worried2Death and any other contributors to help me understand the fundamental question of why our universe is how it is?




Ps… don’t start string theorying or multi dimensioning me W2D - to abstract and I work them back to the same 3 starting points 😉

My theory fits into your third... being... we are an experiment that some twisted being has put here. Basically we are their equivalent to mice/hamsters on a wheel and they enjoy watching us squirm.

Within this experiment on 8 billion human mice, there are special human mice that are worthy of special treatment. These are the ones who for decades have supported a team called the warriors. They get extra punishments to their emotions. (this also applies to fans of the black caps).

 

[Worried2Death]

I would like to invite the thought of those great philosophers @Wrighty @

Worried2Death and any other contributors to help me understand the fundamental question of why our universe is how it is?

I think you're conflating two questions here, Science (How) and Philosophy (Why). We'll never know the answer to either in our time, unless you find God somehow, personally I don't see any reason to attribute intelligent design to the science just because of the that fact I exist despite all the odds (assuming I do).
I defer to the great philosopher bob dylan,
"We live, we die, we know not why
We'll just have to see how it goes"

Having said that, we all keep asking these questions because, well, here we are. Good post bro, I wouldn't have a clue either.

 

[Wrighty]

So here is my current thinking:

If you research the finely tuned universe, there are multiple complex factors that cause our universe to be how it is. If you ignore humans, which open up the evolution debate, there are many fundamental scientific principles that are so complex our brightest human minds still struggle to discover how they work and interact.

From a purely scientific view, our universe is extremely complex. Eg if even gravity was slightly weaker or stronger the universe just wouldn’t exist. And this is but one of many variables.

The universe is simply to complex for a single shot universe to randomly materialise how is has with its scientific complexity.

To me, the only reasons the universe can be as it is:

- there are multiple universes, each with unique sets of physics via some sort of random generation that through sheer numbers and luck it generated our ‘perfect’ universe
- the universe cycles through big bangs repeatedly and infinitely, each time with different sets of physics until we lucked on the current set up
- there is an intelligent designer that designed our physics. (I believe religion is a human construct but am open to a god via intelligent design)

All 3 possibilities are impossible to prove or disprove and therefore are equally as likely and unlikely. But I strongly believe it must be one of those 3.

I would like to invite the thought of those great philosophers Wrighty Worried2Death and any other contributors to help me understand the fundamental question of why our universe is how it is?




Ps… don’t start string theorying or multi dimensioning me W2D - to abstract and I work them back to the same 3 starting points 😉


Edit: The Odds against our early universe happening by random chance are 10 to the 10 to the 123rd to one, against. That’s from Roger Penrose, Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford.

Science is juxtaposed against religion for most people. About twenty years ago Religious folk tried to bridge the gap through the intelligent designer concept pointing out how unlikely it would be for nature to create our universe or even planet earth,

Despite being religious I have never personally bought into intelligent design. I am comfortable that randomness could have accounted for a lot of our universe, A quick google says:
"On 4 November 2013, astronomers reported, based on Kepler space mission data, that there could be as many as 40 billion Earth-sized planets orbiting in the habitable zones of Sun-like stars and red dwarf stars within the Milky Way Galaxy."

As an aside comment...Jesus and God were very much initially the God of Israel in the old testament. In the new testament he becomes a God for the whole world.
Mark that. A God for the whole world and not Worlds with a s. God and the bible does not believe in multiple planet earths or alien life form.

The other argument for Intelligent Design is to counter evolution. Can all the different species really have evolved from a slug or amoeba from a pond. A Human's DNA structure is profound and as complex as the universe itself and the intelligent designer community say Humans and each major species type was designed.
That argument I am more open to,

 

[wizards rage]

Science is juxtaposed against religion for most people. About twenty years ago Religious folk tried to bridge the gap through the intelligent designer concept pointing out how unlikely it would be for nature to create our universe or even planet earth,

Despite being religious I have never personally bought into intelligent design. I am comfortable that randomness could have accounted for a lot of our universe, A quick google says:
"On 4 November 2013, astronomers reported, based on Kepler space mission data, that there could be as many as 40 billion Earth-sized planets orbiting in the habitable zones of Sun-like stars and red dwarf stars within the Milky Way Galaxy."

As an aside comment...Jesus and God were very much initially the God of Israel in the old testament. In the new testament he becomes a God for the whole world.
Mark that. A God for the whole world and not Worlds with a s. God and the bible does not believe in multiple planet earths or alien life form.

The other argument for Intelligent Design is to counter evolution. Can all the different species really have evolved from a slug or amoeba from a pond. A Human's DNA structure is profound and as complex as the universe itself and the intelligent designer community say Humans and each major species type was designed.
That argument I am more open to,

Interesting.

I tried to keep away from humans as it invites the whole evolution arguement. I can actually accept that animals and humans can evolve over billions of years but I wasn’t wanting to go there.

However there are fundamental stuff that can’t evolve and must ‘be’ from day dot. Gravity, atomic forces, speed of light, abilities of electrons, ratios between the mass of electrons and protons, the electrical charge of electrons, etc. Any of these and 100’s of others are slightly different and matter doesn’t even form. There is simply no habitable universe.

As per the stats in my first post the fundamentals can’t be by chance. It’s literally impossible that it was random that these unchangeable core physics constants lucked out just right to allow a habitable universe on the very first random try.

I don’t know. I just see it as impossible that all these variables could be just right to allow matter and planets to form, before we even consider life and the possibility it could form on one of the 40 billion planets.

The key question for me is how those unchangeable constants got their perfect values, as it answers so many questions. But I believe it’s as hard as trying to figure out why the Warriors underperform… beyond my capacity to ever know.

 

[Wrighty]

The key question for me is how those unchangeable constants got their perfect values, as it answers so many questions. But I believe it’s as hard as trying to figure out why the Warriors underperform… beyond my capacity to ever know.

No I don't accept that. Push yourself to have an opinion and an answer even if it changes many times. It is your duty to have a view as an intellectual. There is no such thing as a wrong view as long as you are open to your view evolving.

Google the different types of universes and you will come across the bouncing universe theory,

One theory is that there was a big bang and the universe expanded from an infinitely compact singularity and then at a certain point of the expansion it slowed and the retracted again to a singularity and the another big bang then expansion then contraction then another big bang

And if that is true we could be on to our 100th version of the universe at this point.