General Polynesian Culture at the Warriors
- Thread starter Selector
- Start date
-
- Tags
- culture nz warriors polynesian
A mate of mine coached up to under 20's in Sydney back in the 80's. He returned to Auckland in the 90's and coached Auckland under 16's ( I think ). Anyway, he said all the players to trial were islanders and all bigger than him (90kg ). All gifted athletes, a few made NRL later on. They all loved having the ball but not so interested in defending, especially as a team. He had coach the likes of Greg Florimo and Gary Larsen as youngsters. The thing that stood out was that at 16, the Aussie blokes were absolutely determined to get selected. They warmed up , sometimes alone for trials and bought their own ice etc. They took it very seriously. Also, although the Aussie boys were smaller ( not many polynesians playing in Sydney back then ) they all tackled well and understood the importance of defending individually and as a team. Another he mentioned was that some of his boys in Auckland would turn up for training without boots because the family didn't have enough for all the kids and transport was a problem. So we have really been behind the eight ball for quite some time. We are catching up but things have been in place at junior level for a long time over there. The problem now is identifying and keeping our good players before they snapped up at 14 or 15. I'm not sure we are as good as we can be at this. Is there any talent identification system in place?
It's exactly the same with my tribalism theory. Take some tribal German from the back country of Germany and he's thinking exactly the same way as any other tribal thinker..
At the end of the day it's not really about Polynesians but how to get gifted talents to make the most of their abilities and become well rounded players.
The aussies aren't exempt from this either Dave Taylor is an example of a physically gifted player who hasn't kicked on. Bryce Cartwright is the most exciting 2nd tower i've seen since Ali but could easily become the next Mateo.
Our production line is slowly getting more rounded, Afoa and Hingano seem good all round players, Papillii could be an incredible complete talent. Quality coaching at junior level is the key.
The aussies aren't exempt from this either Dave Taylor is an example of a physically gifted player who hasn't kicked on. Bryce Cartwright is the most exciting 2nd tower i've seen since Ali but could easily become the next Mateo.
Our production line is slowly getting more rounded, Afoa and Hingano seem good all round players, Papillii could be an incredible complete talent. Quality coaching at junior level is the key.
bruce
Contributor
I don't think it is that simple. Polynesian kids mature earlier than Pakeha kids. You wouldn't get any Brodie Retallick's coming through the Warriors system, maybe we have even seen the last Simon Mannering. That is more than sad, it is plain dumb. It means the club is trusting itself to find outstanding league players from a small pool of exceptionally talented South Auckland kids and ignoring the slow developers and gems from around the country. Canterbury has a better balance of Pakeha kids playing because they don't get disadvantaged playing the bigger Polynesian kids. The Warriors might be starting to turn that around, but they are paying a heavy price for Dean Bell.
bruce
Contributor
You lost me with "Take". What you say lacks any evidence at all, none, zero, not even SFA.
I blamed bullrush till they. Banned it from schools.
The winner is the best runner.
The kid who defends longest is the biggest loser.
The winner is the best runner.
The kid who defends longest is the biggest loser.
bruce
Contributor
It is more than that. Tackling Mannering style isn't fun, and it is easy enough to hide and let the other guy to the tackling. Hoffman is proving that it isn't just a Polynesian thing either...and Bunty Afoa is showing that it isn't a Polynesian thing at all. It is a slack arse thing. If you can survive in a team and get paid why bother tackling like Simon Mannering. Has nobody at the Warriors figured why Melbourne has such a good defence, Bellamy won't abide slack tacklers and good on him. Also I remember watching a younger Mutts, he tackled like he was being paid by the tackle, I just hope SK can get the big guy motivated again.
I was having a laugh....using Bullrush as a metaphor of the Warriors.
Be that as it may.....it is no secret that club players here play for the attention grabbers:
1. Anything that wins you player of the day....puts you above everyone else.
2. Anything that makes you look tough to your mates
3. Anything that makes you look cool while meeting the conditions of point 1. and point 2.
That is the crude psychology of a Kiwi male.
That is the raw product.
It is down to coaches to manipulate that mindset....to establish themselves as Alpha.
Under a good coach young males seek to do anything that impresses the coach....the pack leader.
1. Win player of the day and prove yourself superior by defending better than the next man coz Coach told you to.
2. Drop some cool shit into your game which does not detract from point one.
3. Reap the glory and impress said mates and girls...make Whanau proud.....
4. At a well coached and managed club....said good player wins admiration of his team mates......(this does not happen at the Warriors.....standing out alienates the cool kids...)
The Warriors probably need a personality like SK to reset the mental side....to kick out the kids who are too cool for School.
The Warriors have to become a learning institution....where everyone wants to impress the teacher.
That shit will take years.
I have said before the Warriors should be scouting the Heartland Union Provinces. Especially for the SG Ball and Harold Mathews teams.
The talent here in Gisborne and the Coast is mind blowing. Trouble is they discover gangs, booze and drugs very young.
In saying that good judges of talent can identify those guys who might make it. It doesn't have to mean they are killing it now or even playing League.
The talent here in Gisborne and the Coast is mind blowing. Trouble is they discover gangs, booze and drugs very young.
In saying that good judges of talent can identify those guys who might make it. It doesn't have to mean they are killing it now or even playing League.
In Auckland it comes back to our league culture, coaching aint good enough at lower (any?) grades, smashing someone is as important as winning, everybody likes to run not many like to defend. Chee Hoo but its fun to watch and play, until we get to Warriors grade and have to watch our team play against some hard nosed grind it out aussie buggers.
Its gonna take a long time and a lot of work form the ground up to change if it ever does.
Its gonna take a long time and a lot of work form the ground up to change if it ever does.
We're a professional footy club with a $6.5 million budget for player contracts.
Why do we have to put up with players who've not had a proper footy education?
I think if we raise that standard then the Auckland league culture will quickly follow.
Most Auckland league kid's dreams depend on the belief that they could one day play for the warriors after all. That fact alone will drive the parents and coaches to demand better coaching if the Warriors demand better juniors.
Raise the bar.
I hope it isn't an Auckland league thing. What you described sounds like league in small town NZ; I had quite a few team mates who would either want to start a fight or start putting on big hits when we were losing and wanted to get some back.
I grew up in a small town and our coaching was either turn up and play touch or do some drills then play touch or attempt some drills the coach saw on TV. We all grew up thinking up in Auckland they were getting the best coaching and it was all structured.
Sure Australia where the clubs had age groups all the way up to reserve grade and NRL would be on a different level again.
There's no reason kids can't get access to top coaching these days.
The Warriors could make a training video and post it on youtube for all the coaches around the country to show their young protégés... Get Shaun Johnson and co. on it so it looks legit, and have them teaching all the basics and the standards that kids need to have to get accepted into the U20s.
PTB skills, league passing skills, back line plays, team tackling drills etc.. milking penalties.. (well maybe not that last one lol)...
Show different age group skill levels as well for each as well. And then show off some of the FG skills to give them the ultimate goal as they learn the basics...
It could be a nice window into how to make the big leagues for the young dreamers out there.
The Warriors could make a training video and post it on youtube for all the coaches around the country to show their young protégés... Get Shaun Johnson and co. on it so it looks legit, and have them teaching all the basics and the standards that kids need to have to get accepted into the U20s.
PTB skills, league passing skills, back line plays, team tackling drills etc.. milking penalties.. (well maybe not that last one lol)...
Show different age group skill levels as well for each as well. And then show off some of the FG skills to give them the ultimate goal as they learn the basics...
It could be a nice window into how to make the big leagues for the young dreamers out there.
The Warriors the best team to put out training drills?
Ive said it before, but ill say it again.
There are many teams with largely polynesian teams.
The problem is in Australia Rugby League CULTURE is a lot, lot more intense. Fans are just like warriors fans, ie oh we lost, warriors 4 eva. They get angry. There is a different level of expectation. And that doesnt start at the NRL level, that starts when you are 6yo.
So IMO its not bein Polynesian, its being based in a city/country that has no real expectations.
IMO if the warriors moved to the Gold Coast or Bondi (not going to happen), we would have a totally different level of expectation and exposure. Our players really arent exposed to the type of criticisum aussie players are by the NRL community as a whole.
There are many teams with largely polynesian teams.
The problem is in Australia Rugby League CULTURE is a lot, lot more intense. Fans are just like warriors fans, ie oh we lost, warriors 4 eva. They get angry. There is a different level of expectation. And that doesnt start at the NRL level, that starts when you are 6yo.
So IMO its not bein Polynesian, its being based in a city/country that has no real expectations.
IMO if the warriors moved to the Gold Coast or Bondi (not going to happen), we would have a totally different level of expectation and exposure. Our players really arent exposed to the type of criticisum aussie players are by the NRL community as a whole.
bruce
Contributor
Not to the extent that we have. Is the population of Auckland mainly Pacific Islanders? Because the Warriors are. Any Aussie coach coming here is immediately in the minority culture wise. The Pacific Islanders playing in Australia are not the majority culture in their teams, and the coach rules.
I think you are over stating some kind of mythological issue with Pacific Islander cultural issue? (what are you suggesting this this cultural issue is?)
There are plenty of teams that have large amounts of Islander nation players, the reason they succeed is because they have expectation on them, by both the coach and the fans, but also the media, and many grow up playing from a younge age dreaming of winning an NRL final.
What do we have in Auckland, how often is a players issue the main focus of an afternoon news section? We simply have zero expectation in NZ from our players. Even non footy fans in Manly have a pride in the Eagles. How many non harcore warriors fans go around wearing warriors gear? How many of our junior teams play in Australia? (0 obviously)
So now we Hoffman, who hasnt been a huge success (my Storm friends lauged at that purchase), is there an Australian cultural problem?
I think you need to throw this theory out the window and place it down to whatever cultural background we play, if there is no repurcussion or expectation we will never have players growing up with a desire to win the NRL, we are just way too isolated from the NRL to feel that desire.
bruce
Contributor
Ok...the elephant in the room. It has long been held that the Crusaders like a strong balance of Pakehas. The reasons (and I admit they must be generalizations) I have heard are:
When training they will work to the level of the least fit guy in the squad. Roger Tuivasa-Sheck proves that wrong for one.
They lose motivation when blasted by the coach if they feel he has insulted them. Cappy? Steve Price?
They will choose their own leader. Manu?
They will have their own bush telegraph within the group.
They are naturally shy, especially when young and will not bark orders, demand the ball or sort out defences.
Those are things I have heard.
Those who use the example of Polynesian players in Australia need to consider the high number of youngsters who go over there and fail, we only hear of the successful ones. The successful ones overcome homesickness and lack of support from close friends and family and survive, and become more Australian than Australians.
They are in the minority in Australian squads. Australians don't give shite about cultural niceties so if the feel insulted they have nobody to share their pain with so they learn to put up with it or fail.
To put it the other way around. As a Pakeha Kiwi has anybody been to a foreign country where they are in a small minority? Come on, speak up.
Where the language is foreign and the culture is even more foreign. Everybody else is a different colour. They have no friends of their own race to share their discomfort about the cultural difference.
People in that situation either give up very quick and go home, or join in and adopt the new culture.
What we are seeing in Australian NRL clubs, the Crusaders and the All Blacks is a dominant Pakeha culture, albeit more accepting of difference than Australians. That culture accepts the Pakeha way of management and communication, no other, that is the way it is.
What we definitely have in the Warriors is a dominant Pacific Island culture. The only one I know of in the NRL. The only similar rugby team is the Blues, so read into that what you may.
With the Warriors we have a conventional Caucasian management system, so different to the Polynesian way of doing things it isn't funny. It is trying to coach, manage and communicate to guys who are steeped in their own culture. If they feel slighted or uncomfortable about things they have plenty of mates and family to complain to. The hurts will fester.
There has to be a clash. Daniel Anderson just brutalised his way through it but it bounced back on him in the end, and there were less Polynesians in the side then than there are now. Ivan Cleary tried to understand it and worked his way through it but was not acknowledged for it.
I am sure JD is well aware of this. I am sure they signed SK because as a proud Maori he understands Polynesian culture and has a reputation for not blowing up at players. If that was JD's plan it was a good idea, except it does not seem to be working...yet.
The answer? I think part of it is obvious, be a lot more careful in selecting players. Size and athletic ability at junior level is probably half the equation and to date the Warriors have been ignoring the other half.
By that I mean next time a talented Warrior's agent wants more money, tell him to piss off and get it elsewhere. They are already on a much more comfortable wicket in Auckland than they will be in Sydney, and they are smart enough to know it.
