Post Match NRL 2020 - Round 11 - Warriors vs Roosters Post Match Discussion

[Mr Bob]

I missed the game, but it sounds like an improved performance so that's positive.

But - I love my stats. And it's bloody clear we have no metre making forwards in the squad. Every week it's our wingers and Roger Tuivasa-Sheck making 100+, and 1 maybe 2 on a good week making over 100 (normally Harris). That is piss poor. It's hard for the backs to do anything in attack with no good forward. Our forward pack is so imbalanced, guys like Hetherington who makes 46 metres in a match is getting mad cred for showing some mungrel (which is severely lacking, but that's all he did based on stats).

There is no platform being set from anyone, only Harris is offering consistent meterage, which is a waste because he should be used as a skill player out wide rather than a fucking battering ram.

Gotta make the best out of a bad situation

Jacks mongrel was highlight of the game for me

I don’t watch league to follow the stats other than the score. I’ll leave that to the number crunchers

the fact we have a loan player as our starting prop speaks volumes - 2 kids in Jamayne Tounua-Brown and Jack

Will Paasi,Ah Mau, Ben Murdoch-Masila or Bunty step up as leaders next year? ... doubtful.

We need that mad hungry character - and I don’t mean Jazz. I mean Jack

 

[Mr Frank White]

This comment applies across a number of players. There are so many of our guys that have had a pretty decent run of games over a couple of years and are still yet to have a game breaking moment. And some very experienced, highly paid guys that have only 2-3 a season.

A lot of other teams have rookies that come on and produce some straight away. And not just the good teams with good systems to slot into. Look how many times Katoa has done something awesome - he'd be in the double figures easy.

So many of our guys are just not producing, yet we go looking for anything positive we can in them. Yes, some guys take a while to bed in, but they should be showing glimpses. I'm usually patient, but I want results and I want results now from our players.

We absolutely need halves that can engineer fluency though.

Payten needs to properly back Chanel Harris-Tavita's potential for a few games in his preferred position on a make it or break arrangement. It sucks to put pressure on youngsters, but we need to be more cut throat and demanding of excellence. 'Show us you belong in FG or work yourself up from the bottom again.'

I was going to post something similar.
We really need quite a few players to start putting their hand up.

 

[pompower]

Short memories when it comes to Chanel Harris-Tavita. He had very good performances last year against the Titans and Sea Eagles at home, and the Rabbitohs away, from memory. Only played 13 games too. One of very few 2019 bright spots. In the games he's played this season, he's been much more conservative. From watching the game, I think that's due to our structures more than anything -- we go to Green far too often with the expectation he will steer the ship. Should Chanel Harris-Tavita put his hand up a bit more? Sure, but he's a 21 year old kid with half a season under his belt. I think that's a pretty harsh expectation if that's not what the coaches are telling him to do.

I don't think Chanel Harris-Tavita has the natural gifts of previous great half hopes like Johnson or Lolohea, but he works hard and there's a very good player in there. I think he's more of a 7 that can play a little off-the-cuff, rather than the running 6 many have him pegged as. I fear that he won't get time to play his game this season as long as Green is around, though.

 

[wrighty]

Clarity of thought comes across in your speaking. While not everything, a coach needs to be a great communicator. Communication is a key part of your skill set as a coach.

You state that only winning is the standard you will judge Payton on. You would be aware that in management there are input and output metrics. Inputs refers to behaviour which will deliver success, and output refers to results. By understanding the differences we can significantly increase our effectiveness towards achieving our goals.

Input metrics are leading indicators and output metrics are lagging indicators. By definition, it can take time for the output to reflect positive changes in the inputs. The more complex the output indicator, The longer the lag from good inputs.

Regardless of how well Payton is doing (or not), no coach in the world could get results yet given the inputs Payton was handed (our squad, our conditioning, our injuries, our Covid situation). He was given a hospital pass.

I judge him on his inputs (communication, correctly identifying issues we can also see, slowly evolving the game plan, attitude of the players, etc). He is doing all right so far. A proven performer next year would be better but I give him a pass with what he’s dealing with.

(I agree with you about Jazz)

Many coaches who are guns in the NRL are way less articulate than Peyton.
Secondly he did come across as articulate to me but not clear minded as you assert.
Specifically he gave the following two contradictory statements:

1) We are not satisfied with tonights performance because at the end of the day we lost and we need to do better than that. Better than tonight. All the coaches reinforced this to the players.

2) We are pleased with many elements of tonight against the defending premiers. We need to set tonight as a minimum benchmark and do as least as well as tonight for the final ten games of the season. We must replicate tonight and be consistent.

So when players hear that type of incoherent non cogent thinking from the coaching staff is it any wonder why they don't put in a consistent effort week to week. IE the players don't know whether they are coming or going after listening to that conflicting emotional noise.

If you do a lot of mental gymnastics you can fool yourself into believing both of those messages he said can cohabit. But really they can't.

 

[Mr Bob]

Many coaches who are guns in the NRL are way less articulate than Peyton.
Secondly he did come across as articulate to me but not clear minded as you assert.
Specifically he gave the following two contradictory statements:

1) We are not satisfied with tonights performance because at the end of the day we lost and we need to do better than that. Better than tonight. All the coaches reinforced this to the players.

2) We are pleased with many elements of tonight against the defending premiers. We need to set tonight as a minimum benchmark and do as least as well as tonight for the final ten games of the season. We must replicate tonight and be consistent.

So when players hear that type of incoherent non cogent thinking from the coaching staff is it any wonder why they don't put in a consistent effort week to week. IE the players don't know whether they are coming or going after listening to that conflicting emotional noise.

If you do a lot of mental gymnastics you can fool yourself into believing both of those messages he said can cohabit. But really they can't.

I think you've put way too much thought in your argument Wrighty.

You can never be satisfied if the end result is a loss. But if everyone puts in, then that is all one can ask for. Thats how most people would have interpreted Payten's answer.

If its was Kearney, he would have made some BS comment like "really proud boys aye, stayed in the game aye, made it close aye, a few unlucky tries against us aye. blah blah blah... you know"

 

[wizards rage]

Many coaches who are guns in the NRL are way less articulate than Peyton.
Secondly he did come across as articulate to me but not clear minded as you assert.
Specifically he gave the following two contradictory statements:

1) We are not satisfied with tonights performance because at the end of the day we lost and we need to do better than that. Better than tonight. All the coaches reinforced this to the players.

2) We are pleased with many elements of tonight against the defending premiers. We need to set tonight as a minimum benchmark and do as least as well as tonight for the final ten games of the season. We must replicate tonight and be consistent.

So when players hear that type of incoherent non cogent thinking from the coaching staff is it any wonder why they don't put in a consistent effort week to week. IE the players don't know whether they are coming or going after listening to that conflicting emotional noise.

If you do a lot of mental gymnastics you can fool yourself into believing both of those messages he said can cohabit. But really they can't.

Talking to the audience...

Say 1 as a standard reply to what you say after a loss - no laughing and smiling and be downcast.

Says 2 when he realises he needs to promote and market the team to fans as being competitive so they watch next week.

Mental gymnastics

 

[wrighty]

Talking to the audience...

Say 1 as a standard reply to what you say after a loss - no laughing and smiling and be downcast.

Says 2 when he realises he needs to promote and market the team to fans as being competitive so they watch next week.

Mental gymnastics

Like your posting a lot wizards rage . Thanks for the post. I liked it.

 

[wrighty]

I think you've put way too much thought in your argument Wrighty.

You can never be satisfied if the end result is a loss. But if everyone puts in, then that is all one can ask for. Thats how most people would have interpreted Payten's answer.

If its was Kearney, he would have made some BS comment like "really proud boys aye, stayed in the game aye, made it close aye, a few unlucky tries against us aye. blah blah blah... you know"

The redeeming feature of Payten is this

If guys screw up he reacts in the game and takes them off
1) Chanel Harris-Tavita was hooked after defending like a marshmallow and letting in the back breaking try.
2) Jazz was hooked after 30 minutes after two inane gaffs.
He then brought Jazz back on with twenty left. Jazz rewarded Paytens faith in him by giving away a blatant as buggery not square at marker penalty. It was so blatant it could have been a professional foul if the ref was in a bad mood.
Jazz's continued mistakes notwithstanding the point is that Todd will hook people which is one thing better than SK.

 

[Ever Hopeful]

Short memories when it comes to Chanel Harris-Tavita. He had very good performances last year against the Titans and Sea Eagles at home, and the Rabbitohs away, from memory. Only played 13 games too. One of very few 2019 bright spots.

Chanel Harris-Tavita had a very good 2019 as a very green rookie. I can't remember the games you mention specifically, but what was his strength in them in your opinion?

I remember a committed, composed young kid who defended well for his age and size and distributed well at times. He made a couple of heads up plays when he put in early grubbers. Some were the right option. What I haven't seen in FG (that I can remember) is a running game, any organising of plays in response to the opposition or any effective, controlling kicking game.

It is perhaps wrong to put pressure on him when he is on a hiding to nothing by playing second fiddle to Green, but I think most genuine halfback prospects would have shown a few more flashes of the future or taken the game by the scruff of the neck on occasion. I agree, he looks like he has had on overdose of SK's stupefying conservatism.

I really hope he gets a great half to play next to to give him a fair crack, but if he doesn't get that it is on him to stand up and be counted.

 

[wrighty]

I have more to say about Jazz and Payten then I will zip it so that I don't over play my hand.

Even if Jazz made no mental errors or spastic mistakes in games he would still be a bad selection as he is a small body so can't indent the collission both from an offence and defence perspective. When Ice came on for him we were doing well as we were winning the arm wrestle. When jazz was there although he was making many tackles they were not driving tackles. Instead after his defensive hit the opponent would make a good post contact metres. Compare this e Katoa. When he was tackling last night the opponent was stopped dead at the gain line. Every carry is important in a set in terms of establishing momentum for the next hit up. When Jazz makes a tackle you know they will get a roll on in their next hit up.

Regarding Payten. He is way more observant than SK. IE as mentions he hooks people. While SK would defend people even if they were the goat of the game.
Payten is a sentient human being.
My beef with him is that he selects Jazz. Maybe he saw enough in the last game that he will dump Jazz in tuesday's team list. I mean herbert was discarded for this game so anything is possible. If he dumps Jazz then I will come around to him.

The other issue I have with Payten is both a neg and plus.
From a plus perspective our line speed in the first twenty minutes was top 4 in the league standard and we only let Roosters have 45 metres in their first set of six. Soon through strangling their sets of six we had great field position and we crossed the chalk.
As I was watching our remarkable and unwarrior like line speed I was beginning to admire Peyton as a) we were winning 12-6 at the break and looking good value for it
b) the line speed was his doing

However at half time I lost respect for Peyton. While Roosters were busy hatching a great plan for the second half. that boiled down to increase their line speed as the ref is being lenient tonight, Peyton and the Warriors were walking around not discussing anything at drinking gatorade.
At a minimum if Peyton was a great coach he would have
a) predicted Roosters response and had a counter for it
b) doubled down on our line speed and ensure we kept it up in the second half

Instead our line speed slipped if anything.

It is rambunctious of me to have a firm opinion of Peyton so early in his career. If he can somehow have the clarity to cut Jazz to the wilderness then maybe he is the long term man for the job.

 

[Orifice]

Short memories when it comes to Chanel Harris-Tavita. He had very good performances last year against the Titans and Sea Eagles at home, and the Rabbitohs away, from memory. Only played 13 games too. One of very few 2019 bright spots. In the games he's played this season, he's been much more conservative. From watching the game, I think that's due to our structures more than anything -- we go to Green far too often with the expectation he will steer the ship. Should Chanel Harris-Tavita put his hand up a bit more? Sure, but he's a 21 year old kid with half a season under his belt. I think that's a pretty harsh expectation if that's not what the coaches are telling him to do.

I don't think Chanel Harris-Tavita has the natural gifts of previous great half hopes like Johnson or Lolohea, but he works hard and there's a very good player in there. I think he's more of a 7 that can play a little off-the-cuff, rather than the running 6 many have him pegged as. I fear that he won't get time to play his game this season as long as Green is around, though.

Yeah he was and I'm still a fan! I just wish when these guys get the opportunity they would grasp it more! This is really a time for him to go you know what guys you dont need to go searching for a replacement im your guy! Hes just not doing enough at the moment but im sure it will come.

 

[Mr Frank White]

I have more to say about Jazz and Payten then I will zip it so that I don't over play my hand.

Even if Jazz made no mental errors or spastic mistakes in games he would still be a bad selection as he is a small body so can't indent the collission both from an offence and defence perspective. When Ice came on for him we were doing well as we were winning the arm wrestle. When jazz was there although he was making many tackles they were not driving tackles. Instead after his defensive hit the opponent would make a good post contact metres. Compare this e Katoa. When he was tackling last night the opponent was stopped dead at the gain line. Every carry is important in a set in terms of establishing momentum for the next hit up. When Jazz makes a tackle you know they will get a roll on in their next hit up.

Regarding Payten. He is way more observant than SK. IE as mentions he hooks people. While SK would defend people even if they were the goat of the game.
Payten is a sentient human being.
My beef with him is that he selects Jazz. Maybe he saw enough in the last game that he will dump Jazz in tuesday's team list. I mean herbert was discarded for this game so anything is possible. If he dumps Jazz then I will come around to him.

The other issue I have with Payten is both a neg and plus.
From a plus perspective our line speed in the first twenty minutes was top 4 in the league standard and we only let Roosters have 45 metres in their first set of six. Soon through strangling their sets of six we had great field position and we crossed the chalk.
As I was watching our remarkable and unwarrior like line speed I was beginning to admire Peyton as a) we were winning 12-6 at the break and looking good value for it
b) the line speed was his doing

However at half time I lost respect for Peyton. While Roosters were busy hatching a great plan for the second half. that boiled down to increase their line speed as the ref is being lenient tonight, Peyton and the Warriors were walking around not discussing anything at drinking gatorade.
At a minimum if Peyton was a great coach he would have
a) predicted Roosters response and had a counter for it
b) doubled down on our line speed and ensure we kept it up in the second half

Instead our line speed slipped if anything.

It is rambunctious of me to have a firm opinion of Peyton so early in his career. If he can somehow have the clarity to cut Jazz to the wilderness then maybe he is the long term man for the job.

I think the no Egan Lawton to hooker may have forced the selection of Jazz.
Being so light on troops, there isn't much choice.

I feel Jazz is one of those players that really needs to step up in terms of performance or risk getting cut. Think Lawton has taking his spot as the small fast nugget who can cover 9 better than he could.

 

[Orifice]

Love lawton at nine! He plays a more tough game, hopenhw get more min this week. We still need brandon smith!!!!

 

[Mr Bob]

I have more to say about Jazz and Payten then I will zip it so that I don't over play my hand.

Even if Jazz made no mental errors or spastic mistakes in games he would still be a bad selection as he is a small body so can't indent the collission both from an offence and defence perspective. When Ice came on for him we were doing well as we were winning the arm wrestle. When jazz was there although he was making many tackles they were not driving tackles. Instead after his defensive hit the opponent would make a good post contact metres. Compare this e Katoa. When he was tackling last night the opponent was stopped dead at the gain line. Every carry is important in a set in terms of establishing momentum for the next hit up. When Jazz makes a tackle you know they will get a roll on in their next hit up.

Regarding Payten. He is way more observant than SK. IE as mentions he hooks people. While SK would defend people even if they were the goat of the game.
Payten is a sentient human being.
My beef with him is that he selects Jazz. Maybe he saw enough in the last game that he will dump Jazz in tuesday's team list. I mean herbert was discarded for this game so anything is possible. If he dumps Jazz then I will come around to him.

The other issue I have with Payten is both a neg and plus.
From a plus perspective our line speed in the first twenty minutes was top 4 in the league standard and we only let Roosters have 45 metres in their first set of six. Soon through strangling their sets of six we had great field position and we crossed the chalk.
As I was watching our remarkable and unwarrior like line speed I was beginning to admire Peyton as a) we were winning 12-6 at the break and looking good value for it
b) the line speed was his doing

However at half time I lost respect for Peyton. While Roosters were busy hatching a great plan for the second half. that boiled down to increase their line speed as the ref is being lenient tonight, Peyton and the Warriors were walking around not discussing anything at drinking gatorade.
At a minimum if Peyton was a great coach he would have
a) predicted Roosters response and had a counter for it
b) doubled down on our line speed and ensure we kept it up in the second half

Instead our line speed slipped if anything.

It is rambunctious of me to have a firm opinion of Peyton so early in his career. If he can somehow have the clarity to cut Jazz to the wilderness then maybe he is the long term man for the job.

wow - what did Jazz do to get under your skin so much?

its not like others in the team are pulling weight - Blair, Green, Jamayne Tounua-Brown, Burr, Paasi, Egan - take your pick.

they've all be atrocious at some point

As for Peyton, well, its actually Payten so at least get his name right

 

[Mr Frank White]

wow - what did Jazz do to get under your skin so much?

its not like others in the team are pulling weight - Blair, Green, Jamayne Tounua-Brown, Burr, Paasi, Egan - take your pick.

they've all be atrocious at some point

As for Peyton, well, its actually Payten so at least get his name right

I feel Burr and Jamayne Tounua-Brown had better games. Better, not great.

 

[playdaball]

I feel Burr and Jamayne Tounua-Brown had better games. Better, not great.

Jamayne Tounua-Brown’s form had fallen away over the last few weeks.

 

[bruce]

I don't think CHT has the natural gifts of previous great half hopes like Johnson or Lolohea, but he works hard and there's a very good player in there.

Totally agree, he just needs time.

My beef with him is that he selects Jazz. Maybe he saw enough in the last game that he will dump Jazz in tuesday's team list.

You are talking about a Dally M player, we don't have too many.

However at half time I lost respect for Peyton. While Roosters were busy hatching a great plan for the second half. that boiled down to increase their line speed as the ref is being lenient tonight, Peyton and the Warriors were walking around not discussing anything at drinking gatorade.
At a minimum if Peyton was a great coach he would have
a) predicted Roosters response and had a counter for it
b) doubled down on our line speed and ensure we kept it up in the second half

He had to take over from one of the most boring coaches in our history. He could not change things overnight. I am seeing minor improvements, which maybe is a good sign that he is improving them in increments. The major thing for me is they did not drop their lip. That for me was a big plus.

 

[wrighty]

You are talking about a Dally M player, we don't have too many.

With my tin foil hat firmly on - It was a stitch up to select him to deceive the warriors into never dropping him.

As paranoid as that sounds, as admittedly plain dumb as that sounds, have always thought that, he was a rookie at the time he was named bench player of the year to boot.

Roger Tuivasa-Sheck was flabbergasted when they announced him.

 

[dantheman]

Jamayne Tounua-Brown’s form had fallen away over the last few weeks.

Jamayne Tounua-Brown is still super young and green, he was always going to have a drop off in performance this season. He will be much better for it next year.

 

[Mr Bob]

Jamayne Tounua-Brown is still super young and green, he was always going to have a drop off in performance this season. He will be much better for it next year.

which is why he shouldnt be an automatic selection week in and week out

he'll end up like Papalii.....