Post Match NRL 2016 - Round 17 - Warriors vs Titans Post Match Discussion

[Wellington Warrior]

Last night the Tits were never back ten even though the ref only stood back 9 or 10 for them and in the first half in particular we were back 15 most of the time.

This was exactly what happened against the Panthers in Chch. The Warriors were constantly taken back 12-15m where the Panthers would have been lucky to be 9-10m back. Makes a massive difference!!

 

[Horriors2013]

This was exactly what happened against the Panthers in Chch. The Warriors were constantly taken back 12-15m where the Panthers would have been lucky to be 9-10m back. Makes a massive difference!!

The great thing is the boy's did not complain. Nor did they slacked off. That is an attitude change. But yeah the 10ms was thin against us. It often is imo.

 

[Horriors2013]

Regarding Lolohea. I hearken back to a previous post that mentioned defending at FB was perilous no matter who is there.

I agree with that. It's like being a soccer goalie. It wasn't your fault they broke the line but it's your fault if they score. I reject claims Lolohea 's defence is weak. He's no worse than Fusitua.

I do acknowledge he is weak under the high ball. Which is no good at the back. Fusitua is better at FB because of the type of player he is. He is a big unit.

He is good under the high ball due to his height. Can break tackles due to size. Here's a question: if Roger Tuivasa-Sheck came back now, who would be your FB given the criticisms he copped before getting injured?

Personally I'd leave Lolo at 6 as a running pivot rather than playmaker. We should play to our strengths with what we've got rather than trying to fit into convention.
The Times are changing. We don't have to have 3 or 4 playmakers. Luke and Shaun Johnson do it well themselves.Too many playmakers tend to get in each other's way.

Let Lolohea roam free I say.

 

[Trugoy]

Pretty much all been covered but...

Is there a slower forward in the club than Charlie?

Peats copping a full face slap and then the penalty was hilarious. All he did was tap Sol on the shoulder lol

Great to see Mutts show some aggression and 'give a fuck', and stand up to the grub when he ran in.

Tommy looked fkn tuff laying down the law in the huddle with that black tape wrapped around his head. Little Boss!
It's obvious that his influence around the players is just as important as his play.
(his best game this season too)

 

[Horriors2013]

The big difference between watching the game at the park and watching on TV is that you can see how other teams continually are not back ten and all the other little tactics that we get penalised for and other teams seem to be allowed to do.
Last night the Tits were never back ten even though the ref only stood back 9 or 10 for them and in the first half in particular we were back 15 most of the time.

Remembering back to the beginning of last season when we graded Lisone and Vete it is interesting to see that the most touted at the time was Lisone yet Vete has continued to get better and better while Lisone has dropped off somewhat. Last night Vete milked a great penalty which was so pleasant to see a young lad begining to play like a hardened professional.
Kata another young player who has taken the best of his transition to first grade continues to impress with his great defensive reads and his great tackling.

I do realise that the pressure of perhaps the hardest sporting competition in the world must be wearisome for these young guys but when guys like Vete and Kata and also Fusitua continue to show up week in and week out it is great to see.

Lisone is the new Sam Rapira. Goes hell for leather, hits his peak at 24 then gets injured a lot thereafter.

Little props don't tend to last long because they have to give more to make an impact. I've seen him run at bigger guys and fly backwards on his arse.

Mark my words, he won't make it to the top echelon.

We need to go back to finding big bastards from Mangere and

 

[kabkram]

It was good to see the composure that has been lacking so often become evident last night, on a different night conceding that soft try then being on the wrong end of the penalty and possession count could've seen a very different result. Tentatively hoping we've turned a corner but early days and there's still plenty of time for the wheels to fall off. Gubb is an almost player, so I was happy when the coaches seeing he wasn't working at 13 switched Mannering back to where he belongs, sadly I don't know if we missed Hoffman at all.

 

[Jordan G]

Would be interesting to see a list of fullbacks and their tackle/missed/percentage stats.

Boyd 83/18 - 82%
Hopoate 44/11 - 80%
Coote 102/28 - 78%
Gordon 88/22 - 80%
Gagai 119/38 - 76%
Moylan 101/22 - 82%
Wighton 55/17 - 76%
Mitchell 52/23 - 69%
Stewart 48/15 - 76%
Barba 44/15 - 75%
Munster 79/19 - 81%
Zillman 57/12 - 83%
Tedesco 54/17 - 76%

Fusitua 41/12 - 77%
Lolohea 50/19 - 72%

Those are the overall stats for Lolohea/Fusitua rather than just fullback specific. Fullback is also often difficult to judge. Fullbacks like Boyd and Coote spend a lot of time up in the line when defending in their own 20 might get a few extra bonus tackles added on where they're not typically defending like a fullback.

For me what stands out is that guys who weren't natural fullbacks coming up through juniors or are only in the early stages of their careers seem to have slightly lower percentages. Experience as a fullback probably does add a little bit of consistency and reliability, but it's still a fairly low tackle completion percentage position.

Didn't include guys like Inglis, Dugan who have played all over the place this year.

Nothing conclusive there at all, but interesting to look at.

 

[Run_it_str8]

To my mind the FB must be a supreme defender first and foremost. That means he MUST make 1 on 1 tackles, catch the up 'n' unders and diffuse kicks along the ground plus marshall the defensive line.
Every time Fusitua has played FB he has done all these duties well, Roger Tuivasa-Sheck can't make his 1 on 1 tackles for a start.
Personally I'd like to see Fusitua move to centre but it would be at the expense of Kata who is performing consistently well. Tough decision.

He got dally m fullback of the year not based on his 1 on 1 D.

I would put Fusitua to right wing first. Centre , second and if centre then shift Kata to left wing.

Manu gets the Lauitiiti in reserves as an on call cameo player with a reduced workload.

 

[Miket12]

What's not reflected in missed tackle stats for tackles by fullbacks is the effectiveness of the tackle: ie. what resulted in the next play.

Back in the early 2000's, at a game at Mt Smart with the Bulldogs, Barba had a break down the right hand side line. Locke ran him down and performed a text book tackle around his legs. Unfortunately, Locke's body wasn't in a position to hold him down in the tackle, a quick PTB and a few passes later, the Doggies were in under the posts.

Then think of the break down the same side this weekend - Fusitua came over and tried to tackle the runner, missed with the tackle but slowed the momentum of the ball carrier enough that others tackled him and the defensive line was reset and a try didn't happen.

As odd as it may seem, there are times when, in the overall context of the game, it's better for the fullback to disrupt the play long enough for others to arrive so there are more defensive numbers than to perform a text book tackle but still allow a quick PTB.

I think it was Defense who, in the past, has suggested that a tackle in a one-on-one situation should actually be allowed to be held longer than a gang tackle.

 

[eudebrito]

Boyd 83/18 - 82%
Hopoate 44/11 - 80%
Coote 102/28 - 78%
Gordon 88/22 - 80%
Gagai 119/38 - 76%
Moylan 101/22 - 82%
Wighton 55/17 - 76%
Mitchell 52/23 - 69%
Stewart 48/15 - 76%
Barba 44/15 - 75%
Munster 79/19 - 81%
Zillman 57/12 - 83%
Tedesco 54/17 - 76%

Fusitua 41/12 - 77%
Lolohea 50/19 - 72%

Those are the overall stats for Lolohea/Fusitua rather than just fullback specific. Fullback is also often difficult to judge. Fullbacks like Boyd and Coote spend a lot of time up in the line when defending in their own 20 might get a few extra bonus tackles added on where they're not typically defending like a fullback.

For me what stands out is that guys who weren't natural fullbacks coming up through juniors or are only in the early stages of their careers seem to have slightly lower percentages. Experience as a fullback probably does add a little bit of consistency and reliability, but it's still a fairly low tackle completion percentage position.

Didn't include guys like Inglis, Dugan who have played all over the place this year.

Nothing conclusive there at all, but interesting to look at.

Any chance of finding Rogers? 10 made 10 missed seems possible, but it probably wasn't that bad...
Mitchell being at the bottom seems about right

 

[Jay M]

Any chance of finding Rogers? 10 made 10 missed seems possible, but it probably wasn't that bad...
Mitchell being at the bottom seems about right

 

[Jay M]

Any chance of finding Rogers? 10 made 10 missed seems possible, but it probably wasn't that bad...
Mitchell being at the bottom seems about right

If I have time later, I'll pull out Lolohea's and Fusitua's from when they've been playing fullback. I think their wing stats make their percentages look significantly better than they are at fullback!

 

[Rick O'Shay]

I do realise that the pressure of perhaps the hardest sporting competition in the world must be wearisome for these young guys but when guys like Vete and Kata and also Fusitua continue to show up week in and week out it is great to see.

Well said Freddie. We continue to lambast the coaching staff on here but what we are seeing is some great development of the better youngsters in the club. Afoa being the latest incarnation.
Only a matter of time before we see Hingano make his debut I reckon and I'm hoping that will be one of the final pieces in the puzzle. Will be interesting to see what happens now with crazy Eyes announcing his departure back to the UK.
According to the messiah, no-one gets released early unless there is a replacement (Ata or Tui?)

 

[Jay M]

Those are the overall stats for Lolohea/Fusitua rather than just fullback specific.

Any chance of finding Rogers?

Quiet start to the day so here we go:

Roger Tuivasa-Sheck - fullback stats:
Round 1 - Tigers: 1 tackle, 1 ineffective tackle, 3 missed
Round 2 - Broncos: 0 made, 2 missed
Round 3 - Storm: 3 tackles, 0 missed or ineffective
Round 4 - Knights: 1 tackle, 2 missed
Round 5 - Roosters: 2 tackles, 2 missed
Round 6 - Sea Eagles: 5 tackles, 2 missed
Round 7 - no tackles - injured at 16 minutes.
Total: 12 made, 1 ineffective, 11 missed. (these stats are from nrlstats.com so differ slightly from the NRL.com stats I posted above)

Lolohea stats:
Round 1 - Tigers: 4 tackles, 0 missed (wing)
Round 2 - Broncos: 3 tackles, 1 ineffective, 2 missed (wing)
Round 3 - Storm: 2 tackles (wing)
Round 4 - Knights: 3 tackles, 1 ineffective, 2 missed (wing)
Round 5 - Roosters: 1 missed tackle (wing)
Round 6 - Sea Eagles: 4 tackles (wing)
Round 7 - Bulldogs: 6 tackles, 3 missed (five eighth for 16 mins, then fullback) - not sure how to count those ones without replaying the game!
Round 8 - Storm: 1 tackle, 1 missed (FB)
Round 9 - Dragons: Did not play
Round 10 - Panthers: 2 tackles (FB)
Round 11 - Raiders: 2 tackles (FB)
Round 13 - Broncos: 3 tackles, 1 missed (FB)
Round 14 - Knights: 3 tackles, 3 ineffective, 3 missed (FB)
Round 15 - Roosters: 4 tackles, 2 ineffective, 4 missed (FB)
Round 16 - Sharks: 4 tackles, 1 missed (20 mins off the bench on the wing)
Round 17 - Titans: 7 tackles, 1 ineffective (wing)
Total: 49 tackles, 8 ineffective, 17 ineffective. Tackle efficiency 84% (excluding missed tackles), including missed tackles, 62% overall tackle efficiency.
Total Wing: 28 tackles, 3 ineffective, 5 missed. Tackle efficiency 82% (excluding missed tackles), including missed tackles 76% tackle efficiency.
Total FB: 15 tackles, 5 ineffective, 9 missed. Tackle efficiency 75% (excluding missed tackles), including missed tackles 62.5% tackle efficiency.
Total not classsified: 6 tackles, 3 missed.

Fusitua:
Round 7 - Bulldogs: 8 tackles, 1 ineffective (wing)
Round 8 - Storm: 5 tackles, 2 ineffective, 1 missed (wing)
Round 9 - Dragons: 3 tackles, 0 missed or ineffective (fullback)
Round 10 - Panthers: 7 tackles, 1 ineffective, 1 missed (wing)
Round 11 - Raiders: 3 tackles, 2 ineffective, 1 missed (wing)
Round 13 - Broncos: 4 tackles, 1 ineffective, 1 missed (wing)
Round 14 - Knights: 1 tackle (wing)
Round 15 - Roosters: 1 tackle, 1 missed (wing)
Round 16 - Sharks: 5 tackles, 1 missed (FB)
Round 17 - Titans: 1 ineffective, 4 missed (FB)
Total: 37 tackles, 8 ineffective, 10 missed. Tackle efficiency 78% (excluding missed tackles), including missed tackles 62% overall tackle efficiency
Total Wing: 29 tackles, 7 ineffective, 5 missed. Tackle efficiency 76% (excluding missed tackles), including missed tackles 65% overall tackle efficiency.
Total FB: 8 tackles, 1 ineffective, 5 missed. Tackle efficiency 88% (excluding misses). Including misses 54% overall.

So hard to compare the two given Fusitua has only had 3 games at FB. If he hadn't missed 4 against the titans - his FB stats would be significantly better.

The difference for me, is that Fusitua is a bigger body and is more likely to make try-savers on the line whereas Lolohea will probably be dragged over the line due to his smaller stature (both height and weight).

 

[eudebrito]

Quiet start to the day so here we go:

Roger Tuivasa-Sheck - fullback stats:
Total: 12 made, 1 ineffective, 11 missed. (these stats are from nrlstats.com so differ slightly from the NRL.com stats I posted above)

Lolohea stats:
Total FB: 15 tackles, 5 ineffective, 9 missed. Tackle efficiency 75% (excluding missed tackles)

Fusitua:
Total FB: 8 tackles, 1 ineffective, 5 missed. Tackle efficiency 88% (excluding misses).

Beauty, man Roger was bad in those situations, i know it isn't easy, but jayzus.

 

[Miket12]

Beauty, man Roger was bad in those situations, i know it isn't easy, but jayzus.

And you have to remember that for a tackle to be considered a missed tackle, the defender has to have made some contact with the ball carrier - if the tackler gets stepped and is left only grabbing at air (which does happen a few times to Roger Tuivasa-Sheck) it isn't included in the missed tackle stats.

 

[Jordan G]

I suppose the thing for a fullback is that an inefficient tackle (or even a missed tackle) can often be the difference between try and no try provided there's cover coming across to help. Such a tough position.

 

[Gizzyfan]

I'd like someones opinion here. The right side is going well. It seems to me the left sided players tend to throw spiral/torpedo passes, which are hard to put in front of players to run on to. This seems to me a big contributor to the clunky attacking that side.

 

[bruce]

Boyd 83/18 - 82%
Hopoate 44/11 - 80%
Coote 102/28 - 78%
Gordon 88/22 - 80%
Gagai 119/38 - 76%
Moylan 101/22 - 82%
Wighton 55/17 - 76%
Mitchell 52/23 - 69%
Stewart 48/15 - 76%
Barba 44/15 - 75%
Munster 79/19 - 81%
Zillman 57/12 - 83%
Tedesco 54/17 - 76%

Fusitua 41/12 - 77%
Lolohea 50/19 - 72%

Those are the overall stats for Lolohea/Fusitua rather than just fullback specific. Fullback is also often difficult to judge. Fullbacks like Boyd and Coote spend a lot of time up in the line when defending in their own 20 might get a few extra bonus tackles added on where they're not typically defending like a fullback.

For me what stands out is that guys who weren't natural fullbacks coming up through juniors or are only in the early stages of their careers seem to have slightly lower percentages. Experience as a fullback probably does add a little bit of consistency and reliability, but it's still a fairly low tackle completion percentage position.

Didn't include guys like Inglis, Dugan who have played all over the place this year.

Nothing conclusive there at all, but interesting to look at.

Rugby league 101 states that in a decent team the fullback does not have to tackle.

 

[glory_hog]

I was totally critical of Fusitua last couple of seasons because of his lack of heart and just giving up in the chase and in defence, he always had the attacking flair, but man he has just come up in leaps and bounds this season an is fast becoming one of my fav players, totally give the kid credit for working on his flaws, definitely a better FB then Lolo but would have him back on the wing for Roger Tuivasa-Sheck.

Rogers game would have picked up if he was still playing, as it was more a lack of confidence throughout the whole playing group, and to many structures for my liking. his one on one defence is definitely better then what was on offering at the start of the season, just look at the English test series and last years Anzac test, he was solid as.