Post Match NRL 2016 - Round 10 - Panthers vs Warriors Post Match Discussion

[eudebrito]

Went to the game, was pretty boozed by kickoff, only a few things stood out

• The wind, at least a 12 point wind, Johnson kicking it dead, just unbelievable.
  
  
• Matt Cecchin, I haven’t watched a replay, were those penalties legit? They just killed us, if they were legit that’s terrible discipline, if they weren’t he needs to be added to the growing list of refs where if you see their name on the match preview, can write it off as a loss.
  
  
• Ayshford had a massive moan to the ref after one of the 2nd half panther tries, was giving it the full arm waving and pleading for them take a look, good effort Blake.
  
  
• Some good finishing from Kata and wright

Also…Shaun Johnson could be embezzling the pensions of old ladies, and some people around here would say they were asking for it and its not Shaun Johnson’s fault.

And if they sold glass bottles at games, would have been tempted to throw one in the direction of Ben Matulino, other than errors, wouldn’t know he was even playing, he’s a disgrace at the moment.

 

[Lord Gnome of Howick MBE]

No way am I saying Mannering, Manu, Tommy, Jake ,Matulino aren't tough players that's being disrespectful to their service. They are plenty tough but they're all stale at this club

This club needs guys who have been in that ozzy system tough.. James Graham under Hasler. James Tamou under Green. Sam Moa, JWHargreaves with the Chooks. J.Bromwich. Eastwood, Alex Glenn type players.. consistent week in week out NRL tough

There is a post in one of the recruitment threads that highlights just how many of our first choice players will be over 30 when their contracts expire - I'd expect to see a very different team in 2-4 years time as a lot of our longer servants retire or go to ESL.

 

[mode81]

Sure he offloaded but..

the ball went backwards onto a Panther and then went forwards onto another Panther and then forward off that Panther onto the first Panther in front of him and then back to the other Panther who took possession and played the ball

Net result should have been accidental offside against the Panther scrum fed to Warriors but blind biased Freddy [aka Cecchin] allowed play on and the rest is history

We'll never get those rub of the green calls.. James should have just tucked that ball under the wing and charged as hard as he had done all game.. in that instance it was a crucial error.. plenty of other mistakes apart from that but it hurt

 

[mode81]

There is a post in one of the recruitment threads that highlights just how many of our first choice players will be over 30 when their contracts expire - I'd expect to see a very different team in 2-4 years time as a lot of our longer servants retire or go to ESL.

If the club manages it's youth properly over the next 2-3 years we should be ok.. couple of grizzled old veterans would help develop our young props especially.. Lisone, Vete, Sipley will all be 50+ NRL game players in a year or two if managed properly...

Back row seems a big issue.. take out Mannering, Hoffman that leaves Thompson and daylight second. Lane doesn't fill me with confidence.. RFM departed. Ben Henry always injured. Maybe Alex Glenn and Manu Ma'u would be good purchases?.

 

[diehard]

Back to my post about the props being pussies. I agree. My question is: what to do about it.

 

[InsideBall]

And if they sold glass bottles at games, would have been tempted to throw one in the direction of Ben Matulino, other than errors, wouldn’t know he was even playing, he’s a disgrace at the moment.

Said it in the other thread, but I think we need to let him go. His heart just doesn't seem in it anymore, and combine that with everything that's gone on in the last two weeks, and I genuinely think it would be best for both parties to let him go, and sign a serious prop with real leadership qualities to take this pack forward...

 

[The Truth]

Back to my post about the props being pussies. I agree. My question is: what to do about it.

What we need to do is get rid of the pussies and buy some cocks.
Do some fucking for a change rather than getting fucked.
Maybe buy a couple of assholes to.

 

[OMG]

Back to my post about the props being pussies. I agree. My question is: what to do about it.

Its not that they're pussies, they are tough pricks, its more of of a mental thing.
The biggest issue is momentum and it comes back to a few factors, we rarely see anyone running on to the ball anymore and when they do, they reverse in and get dominated slowing down the PTB. Even when they are going forward because they keep driving the legs picking up 2-5 metres they draw in 3-4 tacklers which in turn slows down the PTB and momentum.

The time it takes from 1st contact to the PTB is far too long and ensures the Defence has time to get back, set, shit it seems like they have enough time to logon check in on Facebook.

Matulino was going so nicely as a nothing special Prop, now he is ball playing he gives the defence heaps of time to set and its not like his offloads are Ali quality, when he is looking to find the ground we get momentum.

Jakes reverse and leg pumping are killing us too, the dude would easily average 3 metres once he makes contact, thats a lot of metres where all thats really happening is he is giving the defence time to set.

Gubb has aweful timing so gets dominated.

Gavet is doing what Mutts is doing.

Vete and Lisone are doing all of the above, Vete in particular needs to be fined for every offload, in saying that the whole pack should be fined for offloading, they really aren't that flash.

This is the reason I haven't been going off my tits at Shaun Johnson, momentum impacts everything he does particularly kicking and we are struggling to make the halfway at the best of times.
Same goes with Bully, he needs momentum to take advantage of his running game.
Its an easy fix really but it doesn't look like the Coach gets the Science which ain't rocket Science.

 

[Jay M]

The biggest issue is momentum and it comes back to a few factors, we rarely see anyone running on to the ball anymore and when they do, they reverse in and get dominated slowing down the PTB. Even when they are going forward because they keep driving the legs picking up 2-5 metres they draw in 3-4 tacklers which in turn slows down the PTB and momentum.

The time it takes from 1st contact to the PTB is far too long and ensures the Defence has time to get back, set, shit it seems like they have enough time to logon check in on Facebook.

Good all round post bro. Couple of other thoughts to add to it...

There was a comment made on one of the footy shows on the weekend that defences these days are making the initial contact trying to wrap the ball up, hold the ball player upright, and then bring him down 3-4 seconds later, which slows down the play-the-ball and gives the defensive line time to reset and number up. My initial thoughts were - if I knew the opposition player was going to cuddle me, not hit me with the shoulder, and try to keep me upright... I'd be running straight into their chest as hard as I possibly could with the intention of going to ground before the 2nd-3rd-4th player can get into the tackle. It would speed up the play the ball, confuse their defensive line, and you get the chance of a penalty if the 2nd/3rd/4th come in too late.

Then after doing that a few times, some late footwork at the line, and hit a gap looking for an offload, or passing before the line could create additional space and time for the outsides...

Generally speaking, our pack offload to players in a worse position than they are, with no momentum. Rarely do we have two (or more) forwards moving forward at the same time to keeping the opposition in two minds. Hell, we often don't even have one forward on each side of the ruck ready to run... meaning the markers tend to both go one way... And then if there is the chance for a decent offload - where is the support?

Initiate contact, push off one defender if you can, check your leg drive and go to ground for a faster play the ball... Would reduce their line speed too as they'll still be getting onside by the time the rake has his hands on the ball...

 

[diehard]

As a former Waterboy, doesn't Luke organise the props? And while we're at it, are the second rowers as guilty as the props?

Just seems to me that they avoid collisions, and are passive coming onto the ball carrier with no line speed. They wait. On offense, they stop when they are hit instead of driving through.

 

[OMG]

Good all round post bro. Couple of other thoughts to add to it...

There was a comment made on one of the footy shows on the weekend that defences these days are making the initial contact trying to wrap the ball up, hold the ball player upright, and then bring him down 3-4 seconds later, which slows down the play-the-ball and gives the defensive line time to reset and number up. My initial thoughts were - if I knew the opposition player was going to cuddle me, not hit me with the shoulder, and try to keep me upright... I'd be running straight into their chest as hard as I possibly could with the intention of going to ground before the 2nd-3rd-4th player can get into the tackle. It would speed up the play the ball, confuse their defensive line, and you get the chance of a penalty if the 2nd/3rd/4th come in too late.

Then after doing that a few times, some late footwork at the line, and hit a gap looking for an offload, or passing before the line could create additional space and time for the outsides...

Generally speaking, our pack offload to players in a worse position than they are, with no momentum. Rarely do we have two (or more) forwards moving forward at the same time to keeping the opposition in two minds. Hell, we often don't even have one forward on each side of the ruck ready to run... meaning the markers tend to both go one way... And then if there is the chance for a decent offload - where is the support?

Initiate contact, push off one defender if you can, check your leg drive and go to ground for a faster play the ball... Would reduce their line speed too as they'll still be getting onside by the time the rake has his hands on the ball...

I concur too, I know that over the years the Country has lost a lot of the Coaching development and the game has some new rules but the fundamentals are still the same, a fast PTB has always been the best way to break open defences.
You have to love what the top 4 teams are doing, basic fundamental footy 1st and finish it with flash.

 

[Jay M]

I concur too, I know that over the years the Country has lost a lot of the Coaching development and the game has some new rules but the fundamentals are still the same, a fast PTB has always been the best way to break open defences.
You have to love what the top 4 teams are doing, basic fundamental footy 1st and finish it with flash.

The development of our players through the U20 ranks has helped a lot of that coaching development fall away too. In the old days, when a 16-17-18 year old was playing in the seniors against men - they learned the hard way how things were done. But in the U20s - our "monster" forward pack and offloads made that style of play undesirable. And it's hard to learn it when you've come through the ranks not needing to do it.

It's ironic really, that we often liken our backline plays to touch footy (moving the ball so laterally so often), but the warriors forward packs neglect the key components of how to actually play touch footy... the first 2-3 hit ups are not necessarily to centralise the ball. Nor are they to settle things down. They're a) to get out of your own red zone, but also b) to get the defensive line staggered, moving backwards (if possible), and for them to not be pushing up in your face... that gives you time and space to actually decide what to do.

If you control the play the ball, when you have the pill, or if they have the pill... you get ruck dominance. and ruck dominance wins more games than it loses.

Even if the warriors get >50% of the ball - it's very rare that they have what I'd call ruck dominance. Parity maybe... Dominance? hmmm.

 

[nzw]

Back to my post about the props being pussies. I agree. My question is: what to do about it.

Get a better coach I was reading the paper today and our coach was saying how good the bad boys coming back went what a load of bs , what game was he watching, we need one more half that will get up the players !!One that knows the ins and out of league. Things like when you are playing in a windy stadium and you are warming up kick the ball high a few times so you know what's going on with the wind Shaun Johnson did not do that at all warming up.

 

[Sledge]

Good all round post bro. Couple of other thoughts to add to it...

There was a comment made on one of the footy shows on the weekend that defences these days are making the initial contact trying to wrap the ball up, hold the ball player upright, and then bring him down 3-4 seconds later, which slows down the play-the-ball and gives the defensive line time to reset and number up. My initial thoughts were - if I knew the opposition player was going to cuddle me, not hit me with the shoulder, and try to keep me upright... I'd be running straight into their chest as hard as I possibly could with the intention of going to ground before the 2nd-3rd-4th player can get into the tackle. It would speed up the play the ball, confuse their defensive line, and you get the chance of a penalty if the 2nd/3rd/4th come in too late.

Then after doing that a few times, some late footwork at the line, and hit a gap looking for an offload, or passing before the line could create additional space and time for the outsides...

Generally speaking, our pack offload to players in a worse position than they are, with no momentum. Rarely do we have two (or more) forwards moving forward at the same time to keeping the opposition in two minds. Hell, we often don't even have one forward on each side of the ruck ready to run... meaning the markers tend to both go one way... And then if there is the chance for a decent offload - where is the support?

Initiate contact, push off one defender if you can, check your leg drive and go to ground for a faster play the ball... Would reduce their line speed too as they'll still be getting onside by the time the rake has his hands on the ball...

Good post, just look at how the Bulldogs forwards went on the weekend, there the perfect example of it.

 

[diehard]

Don't think we need to keep hiring new players. We have who we need. It's the system that is at fault. The forwards are reluctant to enter into collisions, and the backs and forwards have low rugby league IQ.

My question: What do you do to change it?

 

[DavidMcKay1974]

I must admit it sounds like I watched a completley different game to what everyone else was watching. We weren't that bad. We aren't as bad as the Knights. Granted we got destroyed by the Storm, but we haven't been thrashed like the Knights have so many times this season.

Apart from the errors made by Johnson, Gavet, and Matulino, they didn't play too badly.

Surely Johnson would have tested the wind before the game? My one critique.

At least he ran a few more times tonight, that's what you guys wanted to see more of, and yet he's still plays like shit according to you guys.

Like I said, I must have watched another type of game, or is that my blinkers on?

 

[Tragic]

I must admit it sounds like I watched a completley different game to what everyone else was watching. We weren't that bad. We aren't as bad as the Knights. Granted we got destroyed by the Storm, but we haven't been thrashed like the Knights have so many times this season.

Apart from the errors made by Johnson, Gavet, and Matulino, they didn't play too badly.

Surely Johnson would have tested the wind before the game? My one critique.

At least he ran a few more times tonight, that's what you guys wanted to see more of, and yet he's still plays like shit according to you guys.

Like I said, I must have watched another type of game, or is that my blinkers on?

I agree, we didn't play as bad as the Knights, but thats not really a great yardstick to measure yourself by. Shaun Johnson did run a couple of times and that was good but his all round game and in particular kicking is really bad at the moment, I am more worried about his short kicking because it gives us no chance when we get down their end, how many dropouts have we forced teams to do in the last few games - sweet fa I reckon.

 

[gREVUS]

without SJ we lose that by a far greater margin sure it wasn't his best game but it wasn't a bad game either it was 3 or 4 bad moments and we were in this game right up unti the 75th minute, others blew it,

I must admit it sounds like I watched a completely different game to what everyone else was watching. We weren't that bad.
Apart from the errors made by Johnson, Gavet, and Matulino, they didn't play too badly.
Surely Johnson would have tested the wind before the game? My one critique.
At least he ran a few more times

David, i think the comment that we werent that bad is incorrect. I think the warriors werent that good. It is my belief that Shaun Johnson failed to lead the players on the field and that he relies on instinctive ability rather than football smarts. This was a similar issue with Benji. No one in the team knows what hes going to do, because he doesnt know. Unless its the last play and they are more than 40 out in which case he will try and kick it over the sideline every time (although, this looks like a coaching decision to me, personal bitch).

Shaun Johnson is the player responsible for creating the magic. And hes damn good at it. But he appears to get no support in directing the team. Hell i cant even tell if he is directing the team either. It wasnt the errors i lamented over the weekend it was the lack of 5th play options.

Sorry OMG i think that to blame others is wrong. I think this game came down to an incredible solo act that is unable to think his team round the park. He desperately needs another kicker out there. He desperately needs another thinker out there. The pressure he is under must be incredible, people want him to single handedly save the game, but until he stops trying to do that and directs the play, i cant see him or the team improving.

you have been saying that its the fault of the Forwards, props mainly. And that he gets no time to make a play. But like in Chess he should be thinking 3 - 4 steps ahead. If you know your forwards are getting dominated, change your options. Stop doing the same thing every time.

Yes i am just a keyboard warrior, but even i can see that when the brain is dead the body will just keep doing the same thing time after time. I honestly dont know that without Shaun Johnson on the park that the score would have been any different. Still a loss. But really no worse IMO.

 

[gREVUS]

I agree, we didn't play as bad as the Knights, but thats not really a great yardstick to measure yourself by. Shaun Johnson did run a couple of times and that was good but his all round game and in particular kicking is really bad at the moment, I am more worried about his short kicking because it gives us no chance when we get down their end, how many dropouts have we forced teams to do in the last few games - sweet fa I reckon.

I couldnt believe how happy i was when the warriors actually forced a repeat set. It was like they had scored a try that would win the game. How sad is that.

 

[diehard]

David, i think the comment that we werent that bad is incorrect. I think the warriors werent that good. It is my belief that Shaun Johnson failed to lead the players on the field and that he relies on instinctive ability rather than football smarts. This was a similar issue with Benji. No one in the team knows what hes going to do, because he doesnt know. Unless its the last play and they are more than 40 out in which case he will try and kick it over the sideline every time (although, this looks like a coaching decision to me, personal bitch).

Shaun Johnson is the player responsible for creating the magic. And hes damn good at it. But he appears to get no support in directing the team. Hell i cant even tell if he is directing the team either. It wasnt the errors i lamented over the weekend it was the lack of 5th play options.

Sorry OMG i think that to blame others is wrong. I think this game came down to an incredible solo act that is unable to think his team round the park. He desperately needs another kicker out there. He desperately needs another thinker out there. The pressure he is under must be incredible, people want him to single handedly save the game, but until he stops trying to do that and directs the play, i cant see him or the team improving.

you have been saying that its the fault of the Forwards, props mainly. And that he gets no time to make a play. But like in Chess he should be thinking 3 - 4 steps ahead. If you know your forwards are getting dominated, change your options. Stop doing the same thing every time.

Yes i am just a keyboard warrior, but even i can see that when the brain is dead the body will just keep doing the same thing time after time. I honestly dont know that without Shaun Johnson on the park that the score would have been any different. Still a loss. But really no worse IMO.

I think that we are lowering our standards. The Knights? Shaun Johnson wasn't to blame, but neither did he help either. The stupid pass and two kicks out on the full cost us 12 points, which was the difference. In saying that, I watch the Warriors partly because of Shaun Johnson, and now Lolo. Love to see the magic and entertainment, even if we lose. Unfortunately, it's in short supply so far. I got a feeling it'll be different in New Plymouth. And we'll definitely win the bye the week after. I think?