Post Match NRL 2016 - Rnd 4 - Warriors vs Knights Post Match Discussion

[Lord Gnome of Howick MBE]

Happy to do a comparison with whoever you think is a world class winger.

Difficult, as defensive liabilities around positioning don't show up in stats.

 

[Jay M]

The best way to put this to bed would probably to post our win:loss ration over the last eleven seasons with Manu either in or out of the team. If its higher with him in the team then he's been good for us, if not he's been a liability.

I actually disagree with that. Reality is, I've said this for years, and even this season... Manu is the best winger we have had on the books (arguably Fish was a more complete winger - but he was injured most of the time). When you don't have someone better to replace him with - it's a moot point (we've played the likes of Tupou on the wing during Manu's career for example) because he is going to add more than his replacements. Even with Manu's deficiencies, I'd always prefer he was in the side ahead of Wright for instance.

For the amount of money he's been paid over the years - I would suggest he's been overpaid given his error rates, and defensive frailties. That being said - his power running and finishing are quite exceptional. The question has always been for Manu - do his positives outweigh his negatives. For the salary cap he's chewed up over the years - I'd argue no (for example, at one point his salary would have paid for both Nightingale and Perrett).

 

[Lord Gnome of Howick MBE]

I actually disagree with that. Reality is, I've said this for years, and even this season... Manu is the best winger we have had on the books (arguably Fish was a more complete winger - but he was injured most of the time). When you don't have someone better to replace him with - it's a moot point (we've played the likes of Tupou on the wing during Manu's career for example) because he is going to add more than his replacements. Even with Manu's deficiencies, I'd always prefer he was in the side ahead of Wright for instance.

For the amount of money he's been paid over the years - I would suggest he's been overpaid given his error rates, and defensive frailties. That being said - his power running and finishing are quite exceptional. The question has always been for Manu - do his positives outweigh his negatives. For the salary cap he's chewed up over the years - I'd argue no (for example, at one point his salary would have paid for both Nightingale and Perrett).

Yes, but that was back in the days when nobody wanted to come here and we couldn't spend our salary cap anyway.

 

[ryno]

It would be interesting to see the highest paid wingers in the NRL and then match that up to the success of the teams.

From Zero tackle
Uate (Knights) - 500k

Its kind of Moneyballish but it would probably give you a template on where money should be spent e.g. 1,7,9,13 and saved e.g. 2,5

In terms of the Warriors would we be better off having 2 Wrights on the team and that money saved on Manus contract spent on upgrading our centers?

I love big Manu by the way, I was more looking at things with my business hat on.

 

[diehard]

Never heard of Ryan Hall??? Two issues I have with Manu: Gets hurt alot and lots of scores on his edge as he retreats to catch his opposing winger. I always measure his worth in a game by how many tries he scores vs how many he lets in.

 

[Miket12]

Never heard of Ryan Hall??? Two issues I have with Manu: Gets hurt alot and lots of scores on his edge as he retreats to catch his opposing winger. I always measure his worth in a game by how many tries he scores vs how many he lets in.

I heard the tail end of an interview with Cappy during the week when he was asked about his half time speech and what he said that got the players preforming better in the second half. One of the players he used as an example was Manu and the passion he plays with. He then challenged the other players to match that passion. Of course, other players were mentioned and the heat obviously got to the Knights, so no one could say one way or the other whether that part of the speech lifted the team but there's more to how any player can impact others to lift their game other than just tries scored, defensive errors, missed tackles or tries scored against.

Some things, well, you just can't talk about based purely on stats but the impact different players can have on the team.

It might be a tackle where the rest of the team raise their defensive effort after watching one of their team mates bring down a much larger opponent. Some one calling for greater line speed in defense or Roger Tuivasa-Sheck calling out from the back for a player to move further to one side or the other to fill a gap in the line. Stats, while helpful, just don't show that sort of thing.

 

[Jordan G]

I think Manu getting injured is a little overstated at times. With the way he runs and creates high collisions he's always going to pick up bumps and bruises that see him miss a game here and there.

You don't score 10 tries in 10 consecutive seasons by being injury prone or suspectible to season ending injuries.

He's not fragile by any means and if he got injured less it would probably be at the expense of him doing what he does.

 

[Mr Brownstone]

At one point last year Manu was second only to Francis Mele for our most winningest player in the 100+ games club. Not sure of that's still the case after our recent run of losses.

As for errors, big Semi has plenty in his game as well. I reckon you have to consider the high impact style of running these boys go with as well as the fact they are often being passed the ball in fairly precarious situations close to the sideline, try line and defensive line. Manu is a club legend and absolutely remains an asset to us.

 

[snake77]

He then challenged the other players to match that passion. Of course, other players were mentioned and the heat obviously got to the Knights

The heat as in the whether conditions or "the heat" as int the pressure we were applying to the Knights?

If it's the weather; phew another team doesn't like a bit of sun. If it is the pressure it's a bit of a change instead of us wilting under pressure.

Hopefully the guys were responding after seeing one of their team mates pull of a hit or a hard run. The Tevaga tackle near the end should have got a few of his team mates wanting to follow up. Efforts like that or following a good effort from one of their team mates will help get our season going. Hopefully more of the same this weekend.

 

[diehard]

So what has Luke done better than Jazz so far? Will Cappy pick on form or reputation and $$$?

 

[Lord Gnome of Howick MBE]

Never heard of Ryan Hall??? Two issues I have with Manu: Gets hurt alot and lots of scores on his edge as he retreats to catch his opposing winger. I always measure his worth in a game by how many tries he scores vs how many he lets in.

Someone do the maths.

 

[way2sharp]

Someone do the maths.

on it

 

[snake77]

As for errors, big Semi has plenty in his game as well. I reckon you have to consider the high impact style of running these boys go with as well as the fact they are often being passed the ball in fairly precarious situations close to the sideline, try line and defensive line. Manu is a club legend and absolutely remains an asset to us.

I was watching some of the Breakdown videos on the NRL website and Matt Elliott (sorry for mentioning his name on here I'll head to the corner shortly and pray to the Warriors logo) he showed an peice on Semi where he took a standard hit up but go up and followed up to support the ball carrier. Next thing the Eels have mad a break and Semi is there in support.

Similar to the following up mistakes with a good run or hard tackle; this is the kind of effort on effort we need.

Note: I'd like to post the video but have NRL site is playing up; I might try later.

 

[fizurg]

Be hard pressed to question what Manu gets paid. For most of his career we haven't used our cap and his profile is worth more to the Warriors than what they pay him anyway. For a very long time publicly he has been the Warriors. (Ohh and 150 odd try's)

 

[way2sharp]

Josh Morris 2015
PLAYER STATS P T G FG AR ARM LB HU OL TK MT E
AVERAGE 0 0.5 0 0 11.5 0 0.6 0 0.9 11.5 1.6 0.7
2015 TOTAL 22 10 0 0 252 2489 14 1 20 252 35 15


Manu 2015
PLAYER STATS P T G FG AR ARM LB HU OL TK MT E
AVERAGE 0 0.7 0 0 13.7 0 0.8 0.6 0.4 5.7 1 1.8
2015 TOTAL 16 11 0 0 219 2423 12 10 7 91 16 29

Jason Nightingale 2015
PLAYER STATS P T G FG AR ARM LB HU OL TK MT E
AVERAGE 0 0.3 0 0 15.3 0 0.3 0.1 0.9 9.4 1.1 0.9
2015 TOTAL 18 5 0 0 276 2495 5 2 16 170 19 16

Daniel Tupou
PLAYER STATS P T G FG AR ARM LB HU OL TK MT E
AVERAGE 1 0.6 0 0 12.3 0 0.6 0.1 0.6 3.9 0.9 1.1
2015 TOTAL 27 16 0 0 331 3135 17 2 16 106 25 29

2015 not Manu's best season but there is a comparison.
Couldn't get Ryan WBW Halls stats as Superleague don't count tackles, misses or errors - funny that!

 

[Mr Brownstone]

Josh Morris 2015
PLAYER STATS P T G FG AR ARM LB HU OL TK MT E
AVERAGE 0 0.5 0 0 11.5 0 0.6 0 0.9 11.5 1.6 0.7
2015 TOTAL 22 10 0 0 252 2489 14 1 20 252 35 15


Manu 2015
PLAYER STATS P T G FG AR ARM LB HU OL TK MT E
AVERAGE 0 0.7 0 0 13.7 0 0.8 0.6 0.4 5.7 1 1.8
2015 TOTAL 16 11 0 0 219 2423 12 10 7 91 16 29

Jason Nightingale 2015
PLAYER STATS P T G FG AR ARM LB HU OL TK MT E
AVERAGE 0 0.3 0 0 15.3 0 0.3 0.1 0.9 9.4 1.1 0.9
2015 TOTAL 18 5 0 0 276 2495 5 2 16 170 19 16

Daniel Tupou
PLAYER STATS P T G FG AR ARM LB HU OL TK MT E
AVERAGE 1 0.6 0 0 12.3 0 0.6 0.1 0.6 3.9 0.9 1.1
2015 TOTAL 27 16 0 0 331 3135 17 2 16 106 25 29

2015 not Manu's best season but there is a comparison.
Couldn't get Ryan WBW Halls stats as Superleague don't count tackles, misses or errors - funny that!

Can you get Semi's numbers up? He's the best winger running round these days by a country mile

 

[nzw]

Can you get Semi's numbers up? He's the best winger running round these days by a country mile

yes but are all the wingers there to hit up 1st from our own line every time under pressure and make it over the advantage line 95% of the time a lot of the wingers get there yards from saving themselves for the glamour runs where Manu is doing the hard yards and the ball is not getting past kata much that is why he is not scoring as Many try's as he used to, We do not use the high kick to manus wing like we used to when Stacy was the halfback I think he is playing the game now that the coach has forced on him

 

[Mr Brownstone]

yes but are all the wingers there to hit up 1st from our own line every time under pressure and make it over the advantage line 95% of the time a lot of the wingers get there yards from saving themselves for the glamour runs where Manu is doing the hard yards and the ball is not getting past kata much that is why he is not scoring as Many try's as he used to, We do not use the high kick to manus wing like we used to when Stacy was the halfback I think he is playing the game now that the coach has forced on him

Haha you don't have to convince me of Manu's worth, I love the big unit. However just for pure class, Radradra has no peer at the moment, he reminds me of Noa Nadruku but with an extra 20kg on him.

 

[nzw]

yes

Haha you don't have to convince me of Manu's worth, I love the big unit. However just for pure class, Radradra has no peer at the moment, he reminds me of Noa Nadruku but with an extra 20kg on him.

yes radradra is class right nowlets see if he can last as long as our manu has

 

[Lord Gnome of Howick MBE]

You really need to compare Manu's stats with another winger in his eleventh full year of NRL.