General My Ivan Cleary theory.

JonB_old

Guest
I am generally an Ivan Cleary supporter, however I am beginning to wonder if he is coaching the attacking ability out of our guys. With our backline i thought we were going to torch the NRL.
We have potency in the backline, speed and power.

I remember Ropati scoring random 40m tries once in a while, heck i even remember Mannering making breaks a decent amount of breaks. We seem to of lost attacking spark, we still get front football, but we aren't converting this into points, we have the physical ability in the backs.... I think it is a coaching deficit.
 

Tajhay_old

Guest
I think we have a major issue with our 5th tackle options...we lack creativity.

Just because the players cant execute plays (hell catching the ball would be good enough) doest necessarily mean its a coaching flaw.
 

Northern_Union

Guest
I think in the search for disiplined ball handling and no penalties Ivan has possibly over coached the side as a certain Daniel Anderson did when Ivan was at fullback for the club.
 

Spence_old

Guest
I think in the search for disiplined ball handling and no penalties Ivan has possibly over coached the side as a certain Daniel Anderson did when Ivan was at fullback for the club.

Didn't quite work out for us ont he weekend, did it? ;)

I have nothing bad to say about Ivan, I think it was a poor performance all-round - as the season has been so far. Good foundations, just lacking the killer instinct. I guess this could be a coaching flaw, but it's hard to say where coaching error stops and player error starts.
 

BringBackRovelli_old

Guest
My impression is that we rarely expose retreating defenses, our play-the-balls don`t speed up when there`s an opening, and we keep playing against a well-set line.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
I think we need to seriously reexamine our expectations at this stage. I'd be happy with a 5th or 6th finish, with a bit of momentum heading into the finals.

I would think it's the other way, Ivan undercoaches them. I sense the Warriors club team culture is one that is prone to disillusionment with intense criticism. Daniel Anderson found out that the hard way. It therefore becomes a very delicate process, and to be honest, I think he's probably the style of coach we need. He understands the culture of the club well.

Yes, there is a problem with our attacking backline. I think though it's a matter of personnel and our own development. Aside from Stacey, in a long long time who else has come through to own the halves position? The club, Ivan included, recognised that we need a distributor and an organiser. And they went to the market. Matt Head turned them down. Casey Macguire turned them down. They tried to get Tim Smith back into the NRL. Luke Walsh turned them down. So he had to go for something different, knowing Rovelli, Witt and Fien just did not work for the previous few years. The first thing he got was an enormous prodigy who just has not kicked on, but should over the next few years in Joel Moon. Sadly, I think Ivan is making an error in not consistently perservering with Joel through 80 minutes. To me, Joel just needs time. He's raw. And will be for most of this season but will continue to evolve with minutes in the jersey. The second thing they did was go to someone who has historically organised the club's on field performances well. I don't think it's been an abject failure, I think Stacey was always going to start off slow, but I can think already of 5-6 great plays so far to put us over.

Against the Dragons, for all intents and purposes the Warriors stroll home. There was one consistent problem. The left edge continued to turn the ball over early, and crucially, in try scoring positions also. I don't expect this from Ropati, his hands are usually good. Ivan criticised him heavily for it, which is unlike Ivan. I would also suggest going to the 'Gong has been the Warriors biggest bogey, and the team should have gone away having cracked that bogey. On top of that, Saints are going well this year. Against the Storm, Stacey misses a sitter of a field goal that wins the game. Truth be told, they had everything they needed to get the last 6 points out of 6. Ironically, their worst performance, the first half against the Roosters was the game they won. Also, I feel we have an excellent chance of winning the next 3 games; Cowboys at home, we should give them a bath. Raiders away, they're out of form, should get them; Tigers at home, our defence is too good for them I suspect. After that it's the Sharks at Cronulla, infinitely winnable, Knights at home which should be a hard ask for Newcastle. By the middle of the season we could be sitting very pretty.

All is not lost yet, I just don't see us being a premiership team right now. I see us as being a fair to middling team, with room to move. Realistically, if we hang onto the ball better against Saints, and Stace nails that field goal, we go 5th equal on 10 points and 1 game off top spot. That's how close this competition is, again.
 

Spence_old

Guest
I think we need to seriously reexamine our expectations at this stage. I'd be happy with a 5th or 6th finish, with a bit of momentum heading into the finals.

I would think it's the other way, Ivan undercoaches them. I sense the Warriors club team culture is one that is prone to disillusionment with intense criticism. Daniel Anderson found out that the hard way. It therefore becomes a very delicate process, and to be honest, I think he's probably the style of coach we need. He understands the culture of the club well.

Yes, there is a problem with our attacking backline. I think though it's a matter of personnel and our own development. Aside from Stacey, in a long long time who else has come through to own the halves position? The club, Ivan included, recognised that we need a distributor and an organiser. And they went to the market. Matt Head turned them down. Casey Macguire turned them down. They tried to get Tim Smith back into the NRL. Luke Walsh turned them down. So he had to go for something different, knowing Rovelli, Witt and Fien just did not work for the previous few years. The first thing he got was an enormous prodigy who just has not kicked on, but should over the next few years in Joel Moon. Sadly, I think Ivan is making an error in not consistently perservering with Joel through 80 minutes. To me, Joel just needs time. He's raw. And will be for most of this season but will continue to evolve with minutes in the jersey. The second thing they did was go to someone who has historically organised the club's on field performances well. I don't think it's been an abject failure, I think Stacey was always going to start off slow, but I can think already of 5-6 great plays so far to put us over.

Against the Dragons, for all intents and purposes the Warriors stroll home. There was one consistent problem. The left edge continued to turn the ball over early, and crucially, in try scoring positions also. I don't expect this from Ropati, his hands are usually good. Ivan criticised him heavily for it, which is unlike Ivan. I would also suggest going to the 'Gong has been the Warriors biggest bogey, and the team should have gone away having cracked that bogey. On top of that, Saints are going well this year. Against the Storm, Stacey misses a sitter of a field goal that wins the game. Truth be told, they had everything they needed to get the last 6 points out of 6. Ironically, their worst performance, the first half against the Roosters was the game they won. Also, I feel we have an excellent chance of winning the next 3 games; Cowboys at home, we should give them a bath. Raiders away, they're out of form, should get them; Tigers at home, our defence is too good for them I suspect. After that it's the Sharks at Cronulla, infinitely winnable, Knights at home which should be a hard ask for Newcastle. By the middle of the season we could be sitting very pretty.

All is not lost yet, I just don't see us being a premiership team right now. I see us as being a fair to middling team, with room to move. Realistically, if we hang onto the ball better against Saints, and Stace nails that field goal, we go 5th equal on 10 points and 1 game off top spot. That's how close this competition is, again.

That is the most frustrating thing for me... We haven't been playing amazing footy, but we deserve to be higher than what we are. Our defence has been good this year, so now we just need to start scoring points. I would rather it be like this than the other way around.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
Realistically, as I suggest I see us a 5th/6th team. But I also see us as a team with room to move. And the only way is up, baby, for you and I.

If I was to put my coaches hat on, and make some changes...

1) I'd play Stacey from minutes 1-30, 51-80 at halfback. In his place, I'd put Lance Hohaia in. Lance is going to play hooker for us as an interchange, and he's at his most effective with ball in hand. I think he's maturing rapidly, and it's time to find out if he could handle a quick gig in the 7 jersey. If he can, it eases our pressure in 2010 especially, but also, I think Stacey right now still has a quality touch but perhaps is only at his optimum for 60 minutes. I'd seen some small signs from Lance lately that his kicking may also be a bit more objective too. He was the prodigy to Jones, maybe, just maybe with all the patience in the world he's about to show he can excel at half like we thought he could. What's the worst that could happen??

2) If Matulino is out, you still need one strong ball runner. That man at the moment is not Lewis Brown. He's a good utility, but he doesn't have the force of Ukuma Ta'ai to go through the ruck on the edges. We need someone to terrorise the opposition halfback into defensive errors, and also just into submission full stop.

3) Start Packer and Price. Use them for what they're best at. Going forward. Use Royal and Rapira as your injections of venom. Royal to use his footwork, split the A defenders and pop offloads.

4) More offloads, but also use Price's skills at popping a pass before the line. Wade can trail these passes also and it could destablise our opponents. At worst, it would more than likely offer up quicker play the balls.

5) Target the corners more. Let them burn 2-3 tackles centralising it.

6) Stand half a yard deeper on the fringes. Ropo dropped his try cold, but I also think he was too far up and if he receives it with a bit more depth he can easily transfer it to Manu for an uninhibted stroll to the line, or have more time to secure the ball and step the final defender. Same as the no-try to Vatuvei (which I think the pass was line ball, not forward coincidentally), if Ropo is half a pace back he doesn't panic pass it, he has time to get it in the hands and transfer it to Manu for an easy try. Honestly, I don't think the adjustment here needs to be massive, just a 5-10 degree angle increase from the base of the backline to the edges. The other thing this does is it allows you to explore decoys with wide roaming backrowers to create room on the edges.

Most importantly, the key is to keep the faith and hold onto the ball. We have some great things going for us right now too. Our go forward is unparalleled IMO. Our top 5 props are awesome (Evarn included). Rapira, Price, Packer... clubs would go nuts to have just one of these blokes. Our backrowers defence is enormous, and I think Ropo has defended well lately on his edge also so that point of weakness may be behind him. And we have a couple of outstanding scooters from dummy half. At the moment we have a recipe for a 5th/6th team, and we just need some slight adjustments to be genuine contenders. There are some things we do need to perservere with, and that is Jones at 7, Moon at 6. Oh, and give a nice short grubber in behind occasionally for Denan Kemp, and he'll get you a bag of tries. We're seriously underutilising this guy something chronic. Nothing has changed with him at all, but we're trying to use him like a Vatuvei Mack Truck, when he's a pacey Ferrari. You don't ask a Ferrari to bash over a brick wall, you get it out onto the open freeway and let it show off.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
Hey Iafeta, how do you know about Ivan criticising Ropo?



AS HIS five New Zealand representatives prepared to travel from Wollongong to Brisbane last night, Warriors coach Ivan Cleary suggested some of them might have been more focused on Friday night's Test against Australia than the clash with the Dragons.

The Kiwis players were advised of their selection last week. After St George Illawarra were allowed to steal a late win, Cleary questioned whether the Test was a distraction for them.

"History shows that we struggle in this game, and some of those guys were clearly off their game today," Cleary said. "I'm not sure the scheduling is great for us.

"We have had a lot of trouble in this game leading up to the Anzac Test, and it has happened again this week. We've got so many guys in the Test, and we play on a Sunday … and there were some guys off their game today."

In particular, Cleary was disappointed with the performance of centre Jerome Ropati, who bombed a chance to secure the two competition points 13 minutes from full-time. After beating four defenders to give the Warriors an 11-8 lead, Ropati dropped the ball with the line wide open.

He also threw a forward pass that led to Manu Vatuvei having a try disallowed, and was denied himself by match officials after the giant winger was deemed to have knocked on juggling the ball before he crossed. "He was well off his game today," Cleary said of Ropati.

Asked if anything could be done to avoid the possibility of his players becoming distracted in the lead-up to the annual mid-season Test, Cleary said: "We've just got to get some guys who can concentrate better, I guess."

The Warriors also finished on the wrong end of a 10-9 penalty count that prompted referees Jason Robinson and Ben Cummins to warn both sides that players faced being sin-binned if the infringements continued.

As in last weekend's golden-point draw with Melbourne, the Warriors were left to ponder why they couldn't get a penalty in the dying minutes after Stacey Jones dropped the ball as an off-side Ben Creagh raced towards Jones before he could attempt an equalising field goal.

"The comp's hard enough as it is without just throwing points away," Cleary said. "We might have been a bit flat, there's a bit of travel involved there's heaps of excuses but we worked hard enough that we shouldn't have put ourselves in a position to be beaten."


https://www.leaguehq.com.au/news/lh...-warriors-coach/2009/05/03/1241289038551.html
 

DanKokoro_old

Guest
It was a very unfortunate day for Ropati tho. I thought he probably had his best attacking game since round 1 (feel free to disagree) and should have had 2 tries including the match winner. If he'd just held on to that ball like he would have done 99 times out of a 100, everyone would have forgotten about his 5 other errors and most importantly, i probably would have given him 1 MOM point.. (probably not tho)
 

DanKokoro_old

Guest
Realistically, as I suggest I see us a 5th/6th team. But I also see us as a team with room to move. And the only way is up, baby, for you and I.

If I was to put my coaches hat on, and make some changes...

1) I'd play Stacey from minutes 1-30, 51-80 at halfback. In his place, I'd put Lance Hohaia in. Lance is going to play hooker for us as an interchange, and he's at his most effective with ball in hand. I think he's maturing rapidly, and it's time to find out if he could handle a quick gig in the 7 jersey. If he can, it eases our pressure in 2010 especially, but also, I think Stacey right now still has a quality touch but perhaps is only at his optimum for 60 minutes. I'd seen some small signs from Lance lately that his kicking may also be a bit more objective too. He was the prodigy to Jones, maybe, just maybe with all the patience in the world he's about to show he can excel at half like we thought he could. What's the worst that could happen??

2) If Matulino is out, you still need one strong ball runner. That man at the moment is not Lewis Brown. He's a good utility, but he doesn't have the force of Ukuma Ta'ai to go through the ruck on the edges. We need someone to terrorise the opposition halfback into defensive errors, and also just into submission full stop.

3) Start Packer and Price. Use them for what they're best at. Going forward. Use Royal and Rapira as your injections of venom. Royal to use his footwork, split the A defenders and pop offloads.

4) More offloads, but also use Price's skills at popping a pass before the line. Wade can trail these passes also and it could destablise our opponents. At worst, it would more than likely offer up quicker play the balls.

5) Target the corners more. Let them burn 2-3 tackles centralising it.

6) Stand half a yard deeper on the fringes. Ropo dropped his try cold, but I also think he was too far up and if he receives it with a bit more depth he can easily transfer it to Manu for an uninhibted stroll to the line, or have more time to secure the ball and step the final defender. Same as the no-try to Vatuvei (which I think the pass was line ball, not forward coincidentally), if Ropo is half a pace back he doesn't panic pass it, he has time to get it in the hands and transfer it to Manu for an easy try. Honestly, I don't think the adjustment here needs to be massive, just a 5-10 degree angle increase from the base of the backline to the edges. The other thing this does is it allows you to explore decoys with wide roaming backrowers to create room on the edges.

Most importantly, the key is to keep the faith and hold onto the ball. We have some great things going for us right now too. Our go forward is unparalleled IMO. Our top 5 props are awesome (Evarn included). Rapira, Price, Packer... clubs would go nuts to have just one of these blokes. Our backrowers defence is enormous, and I think Ropo has defended well lately on his edge also so that point of weakness may be behind him. And we have a couple of outstanding scooters from dummy half. At the moment we have a recipe for a 5th/6th team, and we just need some slight adjustments to be genuine contenders. There are some things we do need to perservere with, and that is Jones at 7, Moon at 6. Oh, and give a nice short grubber in behind occasionally for Denan Kemp, and he'll get you a bag of tries. We're seriously underutilising this guy something chronic. Nothing has changed with him at all, but we're trying to use him like a Vatuvei Mack Truck, when he's a pacey Ferrari. You don't ask a Ferrari to bash over a brick wall, you get it out onto the open freeway and let it show off.

I agree with everything you say. I like your ideas because they're realistic, giving Lance a little go at half-back either side of half time is actually a really good idea. I've been liking the idea of Lance at HB more and more this year and i hope Ivan is considering it (atleast on the limited trial basis that you're suggesting)..
 

BringBackRovelli_old

Guest
Bloody hell, this team is really going poorly if fans are asking for Hohaia to be the halfback... I suppose wouldn`t be much worse than our current oprions, and that says it all.
 

ToiletDuck_old

Guest
Bloody hell, this team is really going poorly if fans are asking for Hohaia to be the halfback... I suppose wouldn`t be much worse than our current oprions, and that says it all.

Well yes the team is going poorly, there's no other way to look at it with a 1/6 record.

Giving Lance a go at 7 is a good idea, we won't lose much, and he seems to be in at first receiver a fair bit when he's on anyway.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
It was a very unfortunate day for Ropati tho. I thought he probably had his best attacking game since round 1 (feel free to disagree) and should have had 2 tries including the match winner. If he'd just held on to that ball like he would have done 99 times out of a 100, everyone would have forgotten about his 5 other errors and most importantly, i probably would have given him 1 MOM point.. (probably not tho)

That's all it was, an unfortunate aberration. Likewise, I feel the team had it's best day since about round 2, or more recently that half against the Roosters. It was just the 1%ers we lost in. Tactically, defensively, structurally we beat them everywhere. It was just our final handling that bombed 2-3 golden chances. Given it was against probably the form team of the competition at their fortress, I don't think it's panic stations just yet.

I agree with everything you say. I like your ideas because they're realistic, giving Lance a little go at half-back either side of half time is actually a really good idea. I've been liking the idea of Lance at HB more and more this year and i hope Ivan is considering it (atleast on the limited trial basis that you're suggesting)..

To me, it could be like a Shaun Berrigan to halfback type move. Not a great option over 80 minutes, but he could still develop into that down the track, and for 20 minutes give Stacey the rest he perhaps needs and just straighten us up and snap the A defenders into a frenzy.

Bloody hell, this team is really going poorly if fans are asking for Hohaia to be the halfback... I suppose wouldn`t be much worse than our current oprions, and that says it all.

The Lance Hohaia I'm seeing of late is far different from the Lance Hohaia in his last recent consistent opportunity in the halves. Far more mature, a much more complete player. Not overdoing it, knowing when it's on, and executing well.
 

DanKokoro_old

Guest
That's all it was, an unfortunate aberration. Likewise, I feel the team had it's best day since about round 2, or more recently that half against the Roosters. It was just the 1%ers we lost in. Tactically, defensively, structurally we beat them everywhere. It was just our final handling that bombed 2-3 golden chances. Given it was against probably the form team of the competition at their fortress, I don't think it's panic stations just yet.

Yeah i agree with that too, what i found sooo frustrating about that game was that we played so well. But i do like the look of our draw after the bye..
 

BringBackRovelli_old

Guest
You guys have been wanting to chop off Fien`s kicking foot, you`re gonna want to put Lance into a wheelchair after he attempts a few territorial kicks. Hell he even messed up the easiest of kicks against the Roosters, when we made that break and Kemp was steaming in the middle, he was lucky not to kick it into touch.
 

ToiletDuck_old

Guest
Yeah i agree with that too, what i found sooo frustrating about that game was that we played so well. But i do like the look of our draw after the bye..

Yeah for ffs can we just have a nice 32-10 win at some point? These close games are all good and exciting but shit son, let's have a bit of down time with some solid easy games. It's the NRL's fault...

And btw check your private msgs you numb nuts, is your phone still being a cock munch?
 

ToiletDuck_old

Guest
when we made that break and Kemp was steaming in the middle, he was lucky not to kick it into touch.

Wtf, that's ridiculous, because the ball bounced roughly where he wanted it to (as he wasn't aiming in-field)...he's lucky it didn't go into touch? I suppose Manu is lucky he doesn't put a foot into touch every time he scores in the corner too...
 

BringBackRovelli_old

Guest
He had to kick it infield for Kemp, that was the only sensible option.
 

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