General Lynnmall terrorist attack

bruce

bruce

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What do you think they were trying to do when they put 7 caps in him? Tickle him?
But yes, I very much doubt it was pre-meditated
That was not what they are trained to do.

They are marksmen and one, maybe two shots should have done it. I don't know what they use, probably .38 magnums.

I can only guess he didn't drop straight away and they were pumped up. Human nature.

It is all on CCTV, there will be an investigation.
 
bruce

bruce

Contributor
"The PM said that every legal remedy was tried, but at least one, the Mental Health Act, was not tried. To me that is the big issue."
Today his parents say he suffered from mental illness, and the Police said he was paranoid.

Sorry ladies and jellybeans, they didn't try hard enough to keep this guy inside.

FFS 50 years ago you could be put inside for blowing your bloody nose the wrong way.
 
bruce

bruce

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either way, it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to fault jacinda for this, given every government since 2002 has overseen these laws. But those that do seem like they’d curse jacinda for soggy cornflakes in the morning. Better be careful, you’ll be on a watch list soon enough
Exactly, all the politicians, and the judiciary have to take responsibility...not just Cindy.
 
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bruce

bruce

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Work is underway by security services to review potential threats posed by others who may be inspired by the terror attack in Auckland on Friday.

The concern is that the attack has inspired or triggered others to put plans into action, raising the prospect of a sequel to an attack that saw seven people injured, including at least five stabbed, and their attacker shot to death.

The security services' review would be expected to check resources and warrants for surveillance were aimed in the right place, taking into account any shift in risk brought about by Friday's attack.

It would also see the NZ Security Intelligence Service running a ruler over its "watch list", which it has said include between 30 and 40 people. The number of people on the list was a measure of capacity rather than risk.

Has anybody figured that September is a magic month for jihadis, and they have just arse kicked the Merkins. Overseas news sources have already picked this as maybe a starter.
 
Dixpat

Dixpat

In Andy we (have to) trust
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Today his parents say he suffered from mental illness, and the Police said he was paranoid.

Sorry ladies and jellybeans, they didn't try hard enough to keep this guy inside.

FFS 50 years ago you could be put inside for blowing your bloody nose the wrong way.
Parents who haven’t seen him since 2011!!!

Do you really think that the parents put that statement together?

My guess it was written by the NZ solicitor.
 
bruce

bruce

Contributor
Nope what I said is true.
off topic but...briefly

Pacifika people are urban and church based socially.

That is different to Maori who were mainly rural and small town and based around a local marae.

The rural demise has seriously affected the social fabric of the Maori.
 
bruce

bruce

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Parents who haven’t seen him since 2011!!!

Do you really think that the parents put that statement together?

My guess it was written by the NZ solicitor.
He has done a good job for his client...the government paid for him to do that :rolleyes:

in Merka...he would have been offered a plea bargain for 5 years, or remained in custody for 5 years and face 30 years...on each charge.

We are a soft target mind you the merkins missed a whole lot of Saudis practising flying jets into the Twin Towers.
 
Sup42

Sup42

Contributor
Parents who haven’t seen him since 2011!!!

Do you really think that the parents put that statement together?

My guess it was written by the NZ solicitor.
Probably hey.

They certainly did not fly here to seek urgent help from mental health services for their Son.

As an aside, one of the section papers (8a) is filled out by someone who knows the person, often family or a neighbour or whatever, that person making the application has to have seen the person within the last 72 hours of the application.

Next is the (8b) medical which has to be a Doctor, often times the family GP,

Next is one of my old roles (Duly Authorized officer) serving a Section (9) which is a requirement to attend an Interview conducted by a named Psychiatrist.

Next is the interview Section (10) is is just a piece of paper to say you have been seen.

Last is section (11) the committal of a patient for a period of assessment and treatment up to five days.

The Patient under Section 16 can file a court challenge with the Family Court which will be heard on site at the mental health facility by a family court judge.

It is in other words, a system with multiple checks and balances to ensure people are not committed off the say so, or the opinion of one individual.

The police said this guy was paranoid and gave the example of approaching strangers and asking them if he is being monitored.

This does not meet the definition of a delusion when someone is actually been tracked and monitored.

The idea the public have about paranoia is nuanced when viewed by a mental health lens.

For example, a well to do looking businessman is seen in an emergency dept regarding concerns he is suffering from paranoia.

He tells the staff that the triads are after him because of the Meth scene.

A limousine pulls up, well dressed males of a certain ethnic group usher the patient out of the emergency dept, he gets in the Limo....and staff never see him again.

These things happen.

Very common in this meth world for patients to say they are being phone tapped etc and they have a history of dealing....mental health staff will tend to accept that they are being monitored because most organized meth dealers are being tracked and followed.....

--
 
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defensivebomb

defensivebomb

I know people don’t like criticising the frontline, and they do an amazing job in general, but let’s be honest, that was a pretty ineffective surveillance operation.

Unless the plan was just to shoot him and move on
 
Sup42

Sup42

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I know people don’t like criticising the frontline, and they do an amazing job in general, but let’s be honest, that was a pretty ineffective surveillance operation.

Unless the plan was just to shoot him and move on
I dunno man.

What we do not see or get told, is whether this person 'truely' was a lone individual, or did they have supporters.

He might have been recently grooming someone else, in which case you can understand them not wanting to blow their cover.

Other countries would be touting this as a success. Other countries that are used to not getting their man, would see this as up their with the SAS storming the Iranian embassy or the Israeli special forces raiding Entebbe airport, even though they shot and killed one of their own nationals.

NZders are hypercritical because I think we live in a bubble removed from reality....certainly that is my experience of the Forensic system where the public do not know and will never know the half of it.
 
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wizards rage

wizards rage

Probably hey.

They certainly did not fly here to seek urgent help from mental health services for their Son.

As an aside, one of the section papers (8a) is filled out by someone who knows the person, often family or a neighbour or whatever, that person making the application has to have seen the person within the last 72 hours of the application.

Next is the (8b) medical which has to be a Doctor, often times the family GP,

Next is one of my old roles (Duly Authorized officer) serving a Section (9) which is a requirement to attend an Interview conducted by a named Psychiatrist.

Next is the interview Section (10) is is just a piece of paper to say you have been seen.

Last is section (11) the committal of a patient for a period of assessment and treatment up to five days.

The Patient under Section 16 can file a court challenge with the Family Court which will be heard on site at the mental health facility by a family court judge.

It is in other words, a system with multiple checks and balances to ensure people are not committed off the say so, or the opinion of one individual.

The police said this guy was paranoid and gave the example of approaching strangers and asking them if he is being monitored.

This does not meet the definition of a delusion when someone is actually been tracked and monitored.

The idea the public have about paranoia is nuanced when viewed by a mental health lens.

For example, a well to do looking businessman is seen in an emergency dept regarding concerns he is suffering from paranoia.

He tells the staff that the triads are after him because of the Meth scene.

A limousine pulls up, well dressed males of a certain ethnic group usher the patient out of the emergency dept, he gets in the Limo....and staff never see him again.

These things happen.

Very common in this meth world for patients to say they are being phone tapped etc and they have a history of dealing....mental health staff will tend to accept that they are being monitored because most organized meth dealers are being tracked and followed.....

--
This case has pushed me to do some reading on the fundamental question - is someone who wants to kill, mentally ill? Sup42 - your thoughts?

Complex subject. But after some reading it seems their brains don't work like the rest of ours do. To deliberately kill someone requires crossing a profound human boundary. At some level we must define that as being caused by mental issues.

His desire to kill others was ideological. But the desire to kill must still also be due to being mentally wired different to normal - a mental impairment. He appeared very narcissistic and paranoid which indicated psychological instability.

Now if he was referred to have a mental health assessments done (required because he appeared to exhibit symptoms) and he refused to be checked, then surely on safety grounds you cannot release him with a potential mental health issue while he’s admitting he wants to kill people?
 
Sup42

Sup42

Contributor
This case has pushed me to do some reading on the fundamental question - is someone who wants to kill, mentally ill? Sup42 - your thoughts?

Complex subject. But after some reading it seems their brains don't work like the rest of ours do. To deliberately kill someone requires crossing a profound human boundary. At some level we must define that as being caused by mental issues.

His desire to kill others was ideological. But the desire to kill must still also be due to being mentally wired different to normal - a mental impairment. He appeared very narcissistic and paranoid which indicated psychological instability.

Now if he was referred to have a mental health assessments done (required because he appeared to exhibit symptoms) and he refused to be checked, then surely on safety grounds you cannot release him with a potential mental health issue while he’s admitting he wants to kill people?
Mad versus bad.

Someone took me to task for using that phrase. It is a legitimate world wide very old argument referred to by professionals in a not meaning to be offensive way. It is industry slang or legend I suppose for nature vs nurture.

I have made this argument many times on this website, because people....normal people....(not like me I am not normal, I have not lived a normal life)....see a heinous murder and think chopping peoples heads off and eating their flesh must be insanity.

Sorry to disappoint, often times it is not. Not by a medical definition of the chemical imbalances...the physiological altered states of brain function which are recognised as a mental illnesses.

Society and morality is a construct. Like the matrix, a man made thing we call civilization which has the norms you refer to inbuilt as though those things are a universal truth that is as real as the Atom.

Wanting to kill people is a part of the natural order. The dinosaur becomes man chain of evolution....from amoeba to the hairless ape.

There is nothing mentally disordered in wanting to kill it is hard wired into the species that are predatory, humans are predatory animals. Terrorism is one ape...finding an excuse to dominate and control the other apes by use of threat and fear.

The first Homo erectus to use a femur to kill his cave mate because he was hungry, was not mentally ill...probably not anyway...these genes are hard wired into us.

There are people who join the millitary and the police, because they want to kill people. Some of them are weeded out by psychological profiling, some of them are groomed for special forces work.

Anyway....a mental health diagnosis is not an excuse to be excluded from imprisonment and punishment....even if you were unwell at the time of your crime....unless......and here is the all important qualifier......the speciality for dealing with murderers and the like.....the only time where a mental illness is an excuse for committing a crime....is when a person who is so mentally disordered....that they do not understand the difference between right and wrong....that they cannot understand laws...the roles of courts...and the meaning prosecution.....convition and punishment.

That is a very narrow group of people.

That is the bouncing off the wall batshit mad....and probably crazy forever type patients....who had no idea that there are rules in society which ask you not to kill the people around you.

So...that rules out every single person who plans a murder. They do not by definition of what the word plan means....qualify for a sentence of not guilty by reason of insanity.

Btw I am not having a go at you here...just stating emphatically how the real system works...because I truly understand why normal people who have never been inside Pandoras box....wonder wtf is going on here...

It is like the matrix, no one can tell what the matrix is until you have seen it.

By the argument you made....Paremoremo needs to be turned into a hospital tomorrow and all the inmates medicated....because rape must be a crazy thing when you compare it to how we think.....
 
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wizards rage

wizards rage

Mad versus bad.

Someone took me to task for using that phrase. It is a legitimate world wide very old argument referred to by professionals in a not meaning to be offensive way. It is industry slang or legend I suppose for nature vs nurture.

I have made this argument many times on this website, because people....normal people....(not like me I am not normal, I have not lived a normal life)....see a heinous murder and think chopping peoples heads off and eating their flesh must be insanity.

Sorry to disappoint, often times it is not. Not by a medical definition of the chemical imbalances...the physiological altered states of brain function which are recognised as a mental illnesses.

Society and morality is a construct. Like the matrix, a man made thing we call civilization which has the norms you refer to inbuilt as though those things are a universal truth that is as real as the Atom.

Wanting to kill people is a part of the natural order. The dinosaur becomes man chain of evolution....from amoeba to the hairless ape.

There is nothing mentally disordered in wanting to kill it is hard wired into the species that are predatory, humans are predatory animals. Terrorism is one ape...finding an excuse to dominate and control the other apes by use of threat and fear.

The first Homo erectus to use a femur to kill his cave mate because he was hungry, was not mentally ill...probably not anyway...these genes are hard wired into us.

There are people who join the millitary and the police, because they want to kill people. Some of them are weeded out by psychological profiling, some of them are groomed for special forces work.

Anyway....a mental health diagnosis is not an excuse to be excluded from imprisonment and punishment....even if you were unwell at the time of your crime....unless......and here is the all important qualifier......the speciality for dealing with murderers and the like.....the only time where a mental illness is an excuse for committing a crime....is when a person who is so mentally disordered....that they do not understand the difference between right and wrong....that they cannot understand laws...the roles of courts...and the meaning prosecution.....convition and punishment.

That is a very narrow group of people.

That is the bouncing off the wall batshit mad....and probably crazy forever type patients....who had no idea that there are rules in society which ask you not to kill the people around you.

So...that rules out every single person who plans a murder. They do not by definition of what the word plan means....qualify for a sentence of not guilty by reason of insanity.

Btw I am not having a go at you here...just stating emphatically how the real system works...because I truly understand why normal people who have never been inside Pandoras box....wonder wtf is going on here...

It is like the matrix, no one can tell what the matrix is until you have seen it.

By the argument you made....Paremoremo needs to be turned into a hospital tomorrow and all the inmates medicated....because rape must be a crazy thing when you compare it to how we think.....
Great reply. I find it interesting saying crazy is just those with a chemical imbalance and civilisation is a man made construct. While true, isn’t defining a chemical level that is acceptable, a similar man made line in the sand?

Mad vs bad. If I killed someone while in a rage, jealous, as revenge or to cover a crime, that would be bad/ evil. If I knew societies norms and then planned to kill knowing I had little change of getting away with it and knowing the outcome was bad for myself and chose to anyway, I would call that mad. My risk calculation to self preserve (which society relies on) would be broken. That was this terrorist - mad and bad!
 
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Rick O'Shay

Rick O'Shay

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Great reply. I find it interesting saying crazy is just those with a chemical imbalance and civilisation is a man made construct. While true, isn’t defining a chemical level that is acceptable, a similar man made line in the sand?

Mad vs bad. If I killed someone while in a rage, jealous, as revenge or to cover a crime, that would be bad/ evil. If I knew societies norms and then planned to kill knowing I had little change of getting away with it and knowing the outcome was bad for myself and chose to anyway, I would call that mad. My risk calculation to self preserve (which society relies on) would be broken. That was this terrorist - mad and bad!
Mad V Bad. Whatever happened to an unfortunate accident?

This still boils down to the rights of the individual versus the rights (and safety) of the majority.

Lot of discussion around at the moment as regards to the rights of Anti Vaxxers. Similar analogy.

As an aside, for me, just another sad example of procrastination.

We have become a nation of slow pokes, whether that be the vaccine roll out or much needed terrorism legislation , housing, education, child poverty?

Why does everything have to take so long to do in NZ?
 
john nick

john nick

Mad V Bad. Whatever happened to an unfortunate accident?

This still boils down to the rights of the individual versus the rights (and safety) of the majority.

Lot of discussion around at the moment as regards to the rights of Anti Vaxxers. Similar analogy.

As an aside, for me, just another sad example of procrastination.

We have become a nation of slow pokes, whether that be the vaccine roll out or much needed terrorism legislation , housing, education, child poverty?

Why does everything have to take so long to do in NZ?
IMO we have too many do gooders in NZ.
 
bruce

bruce

Contributor
There are some good posts here.

On the point of where he chose to do it from Mike12.

New Lynn is a cosmopolitan area, but not lower socio economic nor full of immigrants.
Auckland is an immigrant city now anyway.

The area has a large Pacifika community, who are Kiwis of course, but again is probably nothing like South Auckland (where I never go anyway)

There are plenty of white Euros who shop there. It is a very respectable place, actually if I recall the first shopping mall in NZ. It is nothing like some parts of the UK.

Also I very much doubt he would have chosen it without Covid restrictions.

He caught the train from Glen Eden to New Lynn. The cops would have been both on the train and travelling by car. As soon as they saw him heading towards the (usual) front door they would have had at least two guys entering through an opposite door.

They might not have stopped him stabbing someone, but they would have been right on top of him at least 30 seconds quicker, maybe more.
 
bruce

bruce

Contributor
Why does everything have to take so long to do in NZ?
My thoughts, and I apologise for forgetting that idiot in the Lindt Cafee in Sydney.

However I am pissed of with both Cindy and Robertson, especially today.

The press were asking highly pertinent questions, and the feckers still gave them very insulting bullshit.

That pisses people off.

It wasn't just a Labour failure, it was National and Act, and probably Winston as well.

The fact is the government stuffed up, big time, and not the Police nor the SIS.

This was slack work by the Justice Department, the Department of Immigration and respective Cabinets.

As for them dare mentioning the Probation Service, one of the most overworked and underfunded outfits there are, that is just plain pathetic.

Rant over.
 
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john nick

john nick

My thoughts, and I apologise for forgetting that idiot in the Lindt Cafee in Sydney.

However I am pissed of with both Cindy and Robertson, especially today.

The press were asking highly pertinent questions, and the feckers still gave them very insulting bullshit.

That pisses people off.

It wasn't just a Labour failure, it was National and Act, and probably Winston as well.

The fact is the government stuffed up, big time, and not the Police nor the SIS.

This was slack work by the Justice Department, the Department of Immigration and respective Cabinets.

As for them dare mentioning the Probation Service, one of the most overworked and underfunded outfits there are, that is just plain pathetic.

Rant over.
Very interesting interview with the ex paramedic today who was on the spot and confronted this guy. As I previously mentioned best to know and understand the complete details before making assumptions
 
bruce

bruce

Contributor
As I previously mentioned best to know and understand the complete details before making assumptions
I think I got my guesses right, except that he started pacing down the aisles.

I thought from the camera he was gunned down at the front of the shop, because that is where people were looking after the shots were fired.

However I saw the first cop run down to the rear of the shop.

So they might have been looking at the stabbed victims.

I stand to be corrected.

Also it shows the shots were probably necessary. They might not have been magnums...just a guess though. A magnum would have stopped him in his tracks.
 

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