If you posted a link to your source it would make it easier. From the few articles I've come across I cant see the ITM cup or Currie cup mentioned but I see no reason why they wouldnt be included apart from the fact they are not SANZAR competitions
General League Vs Union in NZL
- Thread starter warriors8
- Start date
I've made my point quite clear but as usual if your going to discuss rugby union make sure you do some research before you post cause I actually do know what I'm talking about. Here it is again. The SANZAR deal only consist of super rugby and Tri nations games so everything from Currie Cup, ITM Cup, Mid year & end of the year tours and Lions tours are NOT PART of the deal. How can mid year and end of the year test matches yet been confirm or arranged be part of a tv deal package signed in 2010?
mt.wellington
Warriors Orange Peeler
Perhaps there is a direct correlation between the number of words in the rule book, and how boring (or not) each sport is?
Last edited:
I only just noticed this.
You are incorrect, the Sanzar deal covers;
Rugby championship
Super rugby
June tests
Lions tours
Currie cup
ITM cup
That seems to be a common perception for some reason. If you read the comments on Stuff.co.nz you often see people stating the NRL deal is bigger than the ARU's but not when you count South Africa even though their deal is for SANZAR.
All of the articles when they signed their deal said it was for all SANZAR competitions.
My understanding was the SANZAR deal was with News LTD and they on sold rights to other broadcasting companies such as Sky etc. But then you hear Steve Tew mention that each country has broadcasting deals so I might be wrong.
All of the articles when they signed their deal said it was for all SANZAR competitions.
My understanding was the SANZAR deal was with News LTD and they on sold rights to other broadcasting companies such as Sky etc. But then you hear Steve Tew mention that each country has broadcasting deals so I might be wrong.
When you take a simple term like a Video Ref from Rugby league and reword it as to distance yourself from it's origins into a 'television match official' your rule book will have more words in it.
I think rugby will die out in NZ and league will follow. The world is changing and the push for safety is ruining these games making more rules, more stop start action, and a generally average spectacle.
The players are getting bigger and bigger in these sports which makes them less attractive to place kids in especially when you see some of the injuries they suffer and the mismatch in weights in some grades. Soccer will take over as enrolment and player numbers decrease in the other sports.
The players are getting bigger and bigger in these sports which makes them less attractive to place kids in especially when you see some of the injuries they suffer and the mismatch in weights in some grades. Soccer will take over as enrolment and player numbers decrease in the other sports.
They do but its not observed from my experience. Competitive coaches will place huge kids on the field either because they want to win or those kids dont have any other grade they can play in. I watched a game with kids around 45kg trying to tackle a 80+ kg kid, they were just getting smashed and hurt. Those kids did not want to play after that.
isn't that breaking the rules i thought it was a set weight and you played over or under depending on you're weight they can't be using weight for age
To be honest, can't remember the last time I saw someone wearing a rugby jersey or even rugby shorts out and about. But it seems every second person has a warriors jersey.
When you do see someone in Auckland in a rugby shirt they are generally over forty.
mt.wellington
Warriors Orange Peeler
Wilson: So you wanna play rugby league, son?
OPINION: It's 2014 and surely there is no bias against rugby league in our schools any longer? CALEY WILSON claims otherwise.
It was the Roller Mills rugby tournament that drew Michael Jones away from rugby league as a 12-year-old.
Later on, more than 20 years ago, he became known as possibly the best All Black loose forward ever.
But, as a youngster, he was as committed to league as he was to rugby - watching his uncles playing for the Waitemata Seagulls at the Ranui Domain, and then catching the eye as a goal-kicking centre for the Te Atatu Roosters.
In those days, his idols were Mark Graham and the Sorensen brothers, Kurt and Dane, as well as rugby's Bryan Williams.
But it was the prestige and the challenge of Roller Mills rugby that was all consuming for him and his intermediate schoolmates.
He was shooting for the Auckland West reps, which he made after a series of trials. And then it was on to Henderson High School.
"Rugby was all we played there," he says.
Of course, Jones isn't the only talented footy player to be drawn away from rugby league to rugby union.
In fact, you can come up with an imposing line-up of All Blacks who served a league apprenticeship early on.
How about this for a league team?
1. Bob Scott, 2. Jonah Lomu, 3. Tana Umaga, 4. Joe Stanley, 5. Bryan Williams, 6. Fred Allen, 7. Tawera Kerr-Barlow, 8. Brad Thorn, 9. Piri Weepu, 10. Buck Shelford, 11. Jerome Kaino, 12. Sonny Bill Williams, 13. Michael Jones.
Not a bad harvest, eh?
But there were those who resisted and resented any pressure to make the switch. John Ackland, who now runs the Auckland Rugby League, says Roger Bailey, a great Ponsonby, Auckland and Kiwi centre 50 years ago, was one of those.
Ackland says: "The story goes that he was the leader of the league clique at Seddon High School. He was told he could either play rugby or pick up rubbish. He said: 'Sweet. I'll pick up rubbish.'
"So you had one of the best athletes in New Zealand picking up rubbish in the sports period. Which gives you a clue about the mind-set of some league guys."
Another who wouldn't comply with the establishment was Awen Guttenbeil, who later played 170 games for the Warriors and 10 tests for the Kiwis. He now works in broadcasting.
In the early 1990s, he was a pupil at Kelston Boys' High where the principal, Graham Henry, was on his way to becoming the All Black coach. The school didn't offer rugby league, so Guttenbeil played for the Pt Chevalier club with his mate Stacey Jones. Principal Henry thought Guttenbeil had 1st XV potential and hinted that there could be consequences if he didn't play rugby.
Guttenbeil, however, wanted to pursue a league career - and, anyway, he felt he was already doing his bit for the school.
"I was in the top academic stream," he says. "I represented the school at swimming, athletics, basketball and touch. But I was left with the impression that, unless I played rugby, I wouldn't be a prefect in my 7th form year."
Things became tense, so Guttenbeil sought help from someone with a fearsome reputation as a negotiator. That was his mum.
"She went down to the school and told Graham that I was a league player and that he should back off."
The visit had the desired effect. Henry did back off and, shortly after, Guttenbeil signed with the Manly Sea Eagles in the NRL - which meant he wasn't at Kelston for the 7th form anyway.
Guttenbeil says he and his former principal cross paths from time to time.
"Graham still asks how mum is," he says.
Sam Rapira has a less confrontational story. He props for the Warriors in the NRL and for the Kiwis. He grew up playing league for the Hukunui club, but then went to Hamilton Boys' High. He was able to combine the two brands of footy by playing club league on Friday nights and then turning out for the school rugby team on Saturdays.
"I played two years of 1st XV - as a No 8 or blindside - but pretty much got told to choose one sport or the other. I told them I'd play league."
Rapira also helped pull a school league team together.
"But the school didn't like it, because a lot of the 1st XV players were wanting to change codes," he says. "So that didn't go down at all well. It was a good school, but in terms of that side of things, we were shut out."
The Rapira and Guttenbeil reflections don't signal any great animosity towards those who provided obstacles to their league careers.
But Hugh McGahan, a former Kiwi captain, says there's still bitterness in corners of the league community for the way the rugby establishment has treated league through the years.
"I know some people," he says, "who won't even drive down Sandringham Rd because Eden Park is on it."
Other critics are less obsessive about the pains they take to avoid rugby's headquarters. But some don't hold back on their criticism of the status quo.
One of those is Allen McLaughlin, a league commentator on radio for 30 years. He's fed up with people treading too cautiously around the subject of anti-league prejudices. He sees schools that aren't offering rugby league - and then fail to explain why. He also sees administrators working to get the game into schools but not wanting to upset delicate negotiations.
But he's not inclined to be as quiet as they are.
"Many headmasters come from a rugby union background, as do many of the teachers, and they influence whether rugby league is played at schools," he says. "So often we hear that kids want to play rugby league but the headmaster and the teachers knock it back, because they're part of the old boys' network.
"And the old boys are part of that too. They don't want rugby league to be played on the same level as rugby union because it's going to affect their game. So freedom of choice goes out the door.
"It's a crime. In fact it's one of the greatest crimes this country has ever had in terms of sport.
"Rugby union doesn't want another code to challenge them because they have a monopoly on the talent. But if more rugby league in schools means diluting rugby union's status and playing base . . . well . . . tough titty."
If McLaughlin is suggesting that our high schools aren't catering for a great many league players, it's not a figment of his imagination.
The stats on sports participation at school are provided by New Zealand's Secondary Schools Sports Council (NZSSSC). Their 2013 figures don't deliver any surprises about the two most popular. They're netball and rugby. Next are soccer, basketball and volleyball. And, way down the list, at No 18 - just below table tennis - is rugby league with 3500 players.
That's a 49% jump from 2009, so there is progress. But rugby, with only a 1 per cent increase in the same five-year period, still has eight times as many.
Garry Carnachan, the executive director of the NZSSSC, points to the growth of league in recent years. He says it has improved the way it has offered games to fit in with schools.
"The NZRL's national schools tournament is a shining example of this and it offers a lot off the paddock as well as on it.
"Rugby union has a long-standing tradition in schools, and rugby league has to have viable competitions - and that's not just down to the schools.
"But I don't believe there's anything sinister around schools not playing. It's just the way things are. Rugby league has long been a club sport, whereas rugby union has been in schools for 100 years or more."
Tony Iro is another man advocating patience. He is a former Kiwi (25 tests) and a former NRL player (five clubs and almost 250 games). Currently he runs high performance at the NZRL and is about to return to a former role as an assistant coach at the Warriors.
He acknowledges that the game needs to make more inroads in schools, but he sees problems.
"Our difficulties lie where the schools prioritise rugby union," he says. "But we're seeing small shifts in opinions and priorities. I don't believe that things are going to change very quickly, but some schools are now recognising that there are genuine pathways for both games.
"Given the history of rugby union in New Zealand, we have to be prepared to be patient. It's always going to be difficult when 1st XV competitions hold a lot of prestige in the boys' schools.
"I think that if we tried to muscle our way into what is a very strong competition and into a sport that is deep in the psyche of New Zealand, it might be a dangerous time for us."
It's understandable but still disappointing that the staunchly rugby schools aren't inclined to go public with their explanation for offering league a cold shoulder.
Their standard response when they've been asked for a comment has been either to make no comment at all (King's College and St Peter's for example) - or to provide such a brief statement that it doesn't shed much light on the issue.
That's the option taken by St Kentigern which has a reputation for investing heavily in rugby. Its statement as to why it doesn't offer both codes was this: "The college has played rugby since 1953 when it opened."
Hamilton Boys' has been more forthcoming. It has been one of the country's big achievers in schoolboy rugby - sharing the national title this year and also winning the World Rugby Youth Invitational tournament, for the third time, in Japan.
Nigel Hotham, the deputy principal, coaches the 1st XV. The school plays no rugby league.
He says: "As a traditional school where rugby is very important, our programme provides for the development of players in preparation for their pursuit of either code when they complete school.
"Obviously our programme has an extremely strong tie to the excellent local, regional and national rugby competitions we are involved in. Post secondary school, players are then well prepared to choose to play in, and to excel in, either pathway."
Hmmm. Really? A boy is well prepared for a league career by playing rugby all through school?
Hugh McGahan (Westlake Boys'), Mark Rice (St Paul's College) and Ben Hancock (Wesley College) are going about things differently.
Wesley College knows all about rugby success, especially over the last 25 years, when it's won national titles and produced more than its share of All Blacks, including Jonah Lomu, the ultimate rugby superhero.
Hancock is Wesley's director of sport and has coached not only the 1st XV but also, this year, the school's 1st XIII in its first-ever national tournament.
"Schools are in the business of education and providing opportunities," he says. "By limiting opportunities we are not delivering on potential - and it isn't fair to make these choices for students."
There is a much different footy history at St Paul's where Mark Rice is the principal. His school has been a league nursery with Mark Graham, Stacey Jones, Nigel Vagana and Elijah Taylor among old boys.
The school's formula is to allow the boys to choose their code.
"They can play league on Wednesday and union on Saturday," Rice says. "We have 6-8 boys in both the 1st XIII and the 1st XV. We give the students ‘double honours' if they achieve that."
Then there's McGahan who is the director of both codes at Westlake Boys' on Auckland's North Shore. He had a stellar career in rugby league, but he's comfortable with rugby too - and his sons have played both. He says he can't speak for others, "but for us there is no excuse not to have rugby union and rugby league co-existing."
Remember Guttenbeil's frustrations at Kelston back in the Graham Henry days?
Well, that's one of the schools that's comes to terms with co-existence - and, looking back, Guttenbeil can now appreciate why Kelston was reluctant to embrace rugby league then.
"I was frustrated at school because the pathways weren't there. But I can understand why the schools had reservations - partly because the league competitions weren't so reputable. But that's not the case now.
"No one is saying schools should be playing league instead of rugby. It's not one or the other. It's both."
Caley Wilson is a former media manager for the New Zealand Rugby League. He also played senior club rugby union in the Counties and Otago provinces.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/10553015/Wilson-So-you-wanna-play-rugby-league-son
OPINION: It's 2014 and surely there is no bias against rugby league in our schools any longer? CALEY WILSON claims otherwise.
It was the Roller Mills rugby tournament that drew Michael Jones away from rugby league as a 12-year-old.
Later on, more than 20 years ago, he became known as possibly the best All Black loose forward ever.
But, as a youngster, he was as committed to league as he was to rugby - watching his uncles playing for the Waitemata Seagulls at the Ranui Domain, and then catching the eye as a goal-kicking centre for the Te Atatu Roosters.
In those days, his idols were Mark Graham and the Sorensen brothers, Kurt and Dane, as well as rugby's Bryan Williams.
But it was the prestige and the challenge of Roller Mills rugby that was all consuming for him and his intermediate schoolmates.
He was shooting for the Auckland West reps, which he made after a series of trials. And then it was on to Henderson High School.
"Rugby was all we played there," he says.
Of course, Jones isn't the only talented footy player to be drawn away from rugby league to rugby union.
In fact, you can come up with an imposing line-up of All Blacks who served a league apprenticeship early on.
How about this for a league team?
1. Bob Scott, 2. Jonah Lomu, 3. Tana Umaga, 4. Joe Stanley, 5. Bryan Williams, 6. Fred Allen, 7. Tawera Kerr-Barlow, 8. Brad Thorn, 9. Piri Weepu, 10. Buck Shelford, 11. Jerome Kaino, 12. Sonny Bill Williams, 13. Michael Jones.
Not a bad harvest, eh?
But there were those who resisted and resented any pressure to make the switch. John Ackland, who now runs the Auckland Rugby League, says Roger Bailey, a great Ponsonby, Auckland and Kiwi centre 50 years ago, was one of those.
Ackland says: "The story goes that he was the leader of the league clique at Seddon High School. He was told he could either play rugby or pick up rubbish. He said: 'Sweet. I'll pick up rubbish.'
"So you had one of the best athletes in New Zealand picking up rubbish in the sports period. Which gives you a clue about the mind-set of some league guys."
Another who wouldn't comply with the establishment was Awen Guttenbeil, who later played 170 games for the Warriors and 10 tests for the Kiwis. He now works in broadcasting.
In the early 1990s, he was a pupil at Kelston Boys' High where the principal, Graham Henry, was on his way to becoming the All Black coach. The school didn't offer rugby league, so Guttenbeil played for the Pt Chevalier club with his mate Stacey Jones. Principal Henry thought Guttenbeil had 1st XV potential and hinted that there could be consequences if he didn't play rugby.
Guttenbeil, however, wanted to pursue a league career - and, anyway, he felt he was already doing his bit for the school.
"I was in the top academic stream," he says. "I represented the school at swimming, athletics, basketball and touch. But I was left with the impression that, unless I played rugby, I wouldn't be a prefect in my 7th form year."
Things became tense, so Guttenbeil sought help from someone with a fearsome reputation as a negotiator. That was his mum.
"She went down to the school and told Graham that I was a league player and that he should back off."
The visit had the desired effect. Henry did back off and, shortly after, Guttenbeil signed with the Manly Sea Eagles in the NRL - which meant he wasn't at Kelston for the 7th form anyway.
Guttenbeil says he and his former principal cross paths from time to time.
"Graham still asks how mum is," he says.
Sam Rapira has a less confrontational story. He props for the Warriors in the NRL and for the Kiwis. He grew up playing league for the Hukunui club, but then went to Hamilton Boys' High. He was able to combine the two brands of footy by playing club league on Friday nights and then turning out for the school rugby team on Saturdays.
"I played two years of 1st XV - as a No 8 or blindside - but pretty much got told to choose one sport or the other. I told them I'd play league."
Rapira also helped pull a school league team together.
"But the school didn't like it, because a lot of the 1st XV players were wanting to change codes," he says. "So that didn't go down at all well. It was a good school, but in terms of that side of things, we were shut out."
The Rapira and Guttenbeil reflections don't signal any great animosity towards those who provided obstacles to their league careers.
But Hugh McGahan, a former Kiwi captain, says there's still bitterness in corners of the league community for the way the rugby establishment has treated league through the years.
"I know some people," he says, "who won't even drive down Sandringham Rd because Eden Park is on it."
Other critics are less obsessive about the pains they take to avoid rugby's headquarters. But some don't hold back on their criticism of the status quo.
One of those is Allen McLaughlin, a league commentator on radio for 30 years. He's fed up with people treading too cautiously around the subject of anti-league prejudices. He sees schools that aren't offering rugby league - and then fail to explain why. He also sees administrators working to get the game into schools but not wanting to upset delicate negotiations.
But he's not inclined to be as quiet as they are.
"Many headmasters come from a rugby union background, as do many of the teachers, and they influence whether rugby league is played at schools," he says. "So often we hear that kids want to play rugby league but the headmaster and the teachers knock it back, because they're part of the old boys' network.
"And the old boys are part of that too. They don't want rugby league to be played on the same level as rugby union because it's going to affect their game. So freedom of choice goes out the door.
"It's a crime. In fact it's one of the greatest crimes this country has ever had in terms of sport.
"Rugby union doesn't want another code to challenge them because they have a monopoly on the talent. But if more rugby league in schools means diluting rugby union's status and playing base . . . well . . . tough titty."
If McLaughlin is suggesting that our high schools aren't catering for a great many league players, it's not a figment of his imagination.
The stats on sports participation at school are provided by New Zealand's Secondary Schools Sports Council (NZSSSC). Their 2013 figures don't deliver any surprises about the two most popular. They're netball and rugby. Next are soccer, basketball and volleyball. And, way down the list, at No 18 - just below table tennis - is rugby league with 3500 players.
That's a 49% jump from 2009, so there is progress. But rugby, with only a 1 per cent increase in the same five-year period, still has eight times as many.
Garry Carnachan, the executive director of the NZSSSC, points to the growth of league in recent years. He says it has improved the way it has offered games to fit in with schools.
"The NZRL's national schools tournament is a shining example of this and it offers a lot off the paddock as well as on it.
"Rugby union has a long-standing tradition in schools, and rugby league has to have viable competitions - and that's not just down to the schools.
"But I don't believe there's anything sinister around schools not playing. It's just the way things are. Rugby league has long been a club sport, whereas rugby union has been in schools for 100 years or more."
Tony Iro is another man advocating patience. He is a former Kiwi (25 tests) and a former NRL player (five clubs and almost 250 games). Currently he runs high performance at the NZRL and is about to return to a former role as an assistant coach at the Warriors.
He acknowledges that the game needs to make more inroads in schools, but he sees problems.
"Our difficulties lie where the schools prioritise rugby union," he says. "But we're seeing small shifts in opinions and priorities. I don't believe that things are going to change very quickly, but some schools are now recognising that there are genuine pathways for both games.
"Given the history of rugby union in New Zealand, we have to be prepared to be patient. It's always going to be difficult when 1st XV competitions hold a lot of prestige in the boys' schools.
"I think that if we tried to muscle our way into what is a very strong competition and into a sport that is deep in the psyche of New Zealand, it might be a dangerous time for us."
It's understandable but still disappointing that the staunchly rugby schools aren't inclined to go public with their explanation for offering league a cold shoulder.
Their standard response when they've been asked for a comment has been either to make no comment at all (King's College and St Peter's for example) - or to provide such a brief statement that it doesn't shed much light on the issue.
That's the option taken by St Kentigern which has a reputation for investing heavily in rugby. Its statement as to why it doesn't offer both codes was this: "The college has played rugby since 1953 when it opened."
Hamilton Boys' has been more forthcoming. It has been one of the country's big achievers in schoolboy rugby - sharing the national title this year and also winning the World Rugby Youth Invitational tournament, for the third time, in Japan.
Nigel Hotham, the deputy principal, coaches the 1st XV. The school plays no rugby league.
He says: "As a traditional school where rugby is very important, our programme provides for the development of players in preparation for their pursuit of either code when they complete school.
"Obviously our programme has an extremely strong tie to the excellent local, regional and national rugby competitions we are involved in. Post secondary school, players are then well prepared to choose to play in, and to excel in, either pathway."
Hmmm. Really? A boy is well prepared for a league career by playing rugby all through school?
Hugh McGahan (Westlake Boys'), Mark Rice (St Paul's College) and Ben Hancock (Wesley College) are going about things differently.
Wesley College knows all about rugby success, especially over the last 25 years, when it's won national titles and produced more than its share of All Blacks, including Jonah Lomu, the ultimate rugby superhero.
Hancock is Wesley's director of sport and has coached not only the 1st XV but also, this year, the school's 1st XIII in its first-ever national tournament.
"Schools are in the business of education and providing opportunities," he says. "By limiting opportunities we are not delivering on potential - and it isn't fair to make these choices for students."
There is a much different footy history at St Paul's where Mark Rice is the principal. His school has been a league nursery with Mark Graham, Stacey Jones, Nigel Vagana and Elijah Taylor among old boys.
The school's formula is to allow the boys to choose their code.
"They can play league on Wednesday and union on Saturday," Rice says. "We have 6-8 boys in both the 1st XIII and the 1st XV. We give the students ‘double honours' if they achieve that."
Then there's McGahan who is the director of both codes at Westlake Boys' on Auckland's North Shore. He had a stellar career in rugby league, but he's comfortable with rugby too - and his sons have played both. He says he can't speak for others, "but for us there is no excuse not to have rugby union and rugby league co-existing."
Remember Guttenbeil's frustrations at Kelston back in the Graham Henry days?
Well, that's one of the schools that's comes to terms with co-existence - and, looking back, Guttenbeil can now appreciate why Kelston was reluctant to embrace rugby league then.
"I was frustrated at school because the pathways weren't there. But I can understand why the schools had reservations - partly because the league competitions weren't so reputable. But that's not the case now.
"No one is saying schools should be playing league instead of rugby. It's not one or the other. It's both."
Caley Wilson is a former media manager for the New Zealand Rugby League. He also played senior club rugby union in the Counties and Otago provinces.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/10553015/Wilson-So-you-wanna-play-rugby-league-son
Good man; no one should force you to play a sport you don't want to watch. Did the rest of his league clique give in and play rugby or were they segregated into groups watching the grass grow and the paint dry.
What kind of an answer is that?
Sounds like why hasn't TL been dropped. Because it's Tommy.
I have conversations with older New Zealanders and they say league won't take off because it isn't in schools. The majority of them get blinded by the fact it was never allowed in schools as some principal who fancies himself as a rugby coach would get upset as his best players may want to play another code.
During the offseason with all the league vs union bickering someone posted that everyone is posting about union or schools blocking league being played but said there was no examples. I provided my example in my last year of school, and here are few from some pretty well known people.
mt.wellington
Warriors Orange Peeler
I remember the conversation. Think it was in this very thread. Was and always is bullshit. There has been an anti-league stance in schools since forever. The article above even has an example of former All Blacks coach Graham Hart being one example and by all accounts he was the worst pro-rugby bully.
In St Kentigerns defence I do know they were very supportive of Albie Vete and his U20 career whilst he was playing there. They also backed Matt Duffie and his choice. Only thing is they dont have a league team but they wouldnt be the only one...
The denial fair cracked me up, I went to Aranui where it took a while to establish a League team, the prime reason seemed to be because they couldn't get any of the League players to play for the 1st 15, duh, the Rugby Coach was dick too..
The school was literally on the back fence of Eastern Suburbs Rugby League one of the stronger schoolboys club in CHCH and that was in the middle of the Hood and had 2 other strong schoolboy Rugby League Clubs within it's boundaries..
Only the posh played Yawnion..It was and still is a private school game in CHCH..
haha I think you have to go back to yawnion 101, I think its talking about Graham Henry, and yourve combined the other All Black coach John Hart to get Graham Hart... but yea unions never interested me to slow and boring, use to go to a hick country town school when I was a kid and played the rugby grades, didnt even know there was a game called League till I moved to wellington at age 9, thats the late 70s, just goes to show how indoctrinated union is in small town NZ...
