Internationals Kiwi v England 2018 Denver, USA

[Sup42]

Harris is a straight Swap for RFM.

More debatable is the Sheck Vs Dallin Watene-Zelezniak fullback argument.

If you are going off test form then Dallin Watene-Zelezniak offers far more use as a support runner through that ruck, and he certainly didn't do himself any disservice in the defensive parts of a Fullbacks game.

The thing I like about having a new coach is that you don't know what Madge will do...he might have seen enough in that game to put Rodger on a wing (has played there before in the time of Kevin Locke).

Most won't like that suggestion (don't fuss it probably won't eventuate) but depending on what type of game Madge is looking for (that first half it was all offload and support runners) Dallin Watene-Zelezniak is your guy.

Good problem to have. That sees Isako go bye bye imo...might seem a bit unfair but Rapana probably bumps Ken out (did nothing wrong but ones a Star Winger and the others a good Winger).

Hiku retains his center spot.

Shaun Johnson obviously in for one of those halves...take your pick throw a blanket over them...maybe Nilkorima stood out a little more ?

The rest are much of a muchness, Jesse B is going to push someone out (JWH ?) if he is still interested in playing.

 

[razzrillinger]

Whitehead had a crazy good game, he fights for everything.

Thought our back 5 played really well, especially Marsters and Dallin Watene-Zelezniak. I have been critical of Dallin Watene-Zelezniak in the past but when he's fully fit he is an awesome player.

Our halves need to demand the ball on the final tackle and do something with it, their lack of experience and similar skill sets really showed. We needed a Blake Green type player out there desperately.

Nice to see the green light given to offload in the first half working out. Some of those ones from NAS were crazy.

England deserved to win and should be No.2 in the world if they're not already. We might be missing players but so were they.

 

[Billy Teets James]

Understand the hate on Hargreaves he’s been an easy target for a while but I’m with Marty Taupau on this one, he and NAS were both strong in testing conditions for the big men, yes he made a few errors but so did half the team, his carries were strong he never took a backwards step and layed on a great offload for Dallin Watene-Zelezniak’s second try, he deserves to be in the frame for the next test on that performance imo.

No. Just no.

 

[matiunz]

Saw the replay and glad I didn’t get up at 5:30 for this lol, anthem was absolutely butchered it was comical.
Glass half full though, for essentially a B team we looked not bad for about 50 mins, cohesiveness was off but what can you expect from 7 debutants. Had a couple of the early butchered tries come off it might have been a different story but in the end England’s experience came through.
If we get a few of our guys back for the end of year series we should be right in it.

 

[JaggedJ]

I was surprised at the level of cohesion they showed in the first half, given that our side never plays that way in game one.

Plenty to like about that team, if you bring in Roger Tuivasa-Sheck and Shaun Johnson, plus Tohu Harris...the depth starts to look a lot classier.

Shaun Johnson will have to get his head around the fact that he is going to be the organising half for NZ for the rest of his career.

Agreed. There were signs towards the end of the first half that we were pushing the pass one too many and it was going to cost us, but we looked dangerous. 8 line breaks but only 2 tries.

The positive out of this game is that it has given Madge headaches for future selection.

I still think Whare is our best centre but he plays the same side as Marsters who was outstanding.

Both wingers were great but when Roger Tuivasa-Sheck is back, one makes way for Dallin Watene-Zelezniak who was close to our best.

Martin/Nikorima were basically playing off for who will partner Shaun Johnson.

JFH, Ah Mau and RFM had their moments and didn't look overawed.

It's a nice platform to work with if we can get everyone on the field.

 

[AlexM]

JWH was good.
Looking for a whipping boy? RFM. Guy was junk- straight swap for Tohu Harris imo.
Slade either starts or doesn't play , he doesn't offer enough of a spark.
Isaako wasn't great either.
Was Te Maire Martin on the field?

 

[gREVUS]

Tried to find a replay, but i just gave up as there is nothing here in Melb. I even tried the BBC site to see what was what but no joy. So everything i am about to say is based on what others have commented on.

Kiwis have been competitive against Australia and England for a bit now, but with Tonga reducing the number of players available to them, i expect to see a pattern reemerge that has been around for a long time, where the Kiwis can fill 80 percent of spots easily and then have massive issues filling the team with specialists or even competent players. I expect that this will happen to Tonga and is already affecting the other island nations as well. This means that we will never be competitive as separate nations against the Aussies again. Its just simple maths. Tonga has a pop of 100K, Samona 190K, NZ4 mill and Australia 22mill. The sport is a minor in the islands and NZ reducing the number of players available and a major in Australia. Effectively Australia can field a player for every position 4 times over. NZ and the islands have to mix, match and hope.

Unfortunately its my opinion that the current strength of Tonga will create an overall drop in the ability of anyone to challenge the Aussies long term.

 

[AlexM]

1.Roger Tuivasa-Sheck
2.Dallin Watene-Zelezniak
3.MASTERS
4.HIKU
5.KENM
6.KODI
7.Shaun Johnson
8.BLAIR
9.LUKE?/slade
10.jwh
11.TAPINE
12.Tohu Harris
13.TAPAU

14.Slade/Levi
15.Bromwich
16.JFH
17.NAS

End of year team

 

[Sup42]

How unlucky was Agnatius Paasi to not make an international side this weekend ? he's been running harder than some of the forwards we have seen in the last twenty four hours.

 

[Sup42]

Whitehead had a crazy good game, he fights for everything.

He was in everything.
There is always one in that pack that really shows out every time we play them, it just goes to show how much playing for your country means to some players.

MOM performance. Wouldn't mind seeing him running around in the NRL.

 

[JaggedJ]

He was in everything.
There is always one in that pack that really shows out every time we play them, it just goes to show how much playing for your country means to some players.

MOM performance. Wouldn't mind seeing him running around in the NRL.

I hear the Raiders are interested in him.

 

[kos]

Do you think dumbness can be coached out of the Kiwis.

From a kick off send it over the dead ball line so the Poms get it on half way. And lets do it twice.
Luke standing on someones hand deliberately.
There was lots of other stuff including I think 2 or 3 penalties against us early.


Positives.
Dallin Watene-Zelezniak was outstanding.
NAS , Marty T very good , how come Marty only played about 40 minutes? And RFM seemed to play 80?
Masters very good.
Tapine solid.
Luke rocks and diamonds. But the diamonds were good. Just the rocks were more dumbness.

We will be better at the end of the year with a few subtracted players (Te Maire Martin for one) and a few added players ..Tohu Harris, Shaun Johnson. Roger Tuivasa-Sheck for starters.

 

[Sup42]

Do you think dumbness can be coached out of the Kiwis.

From a kick off send it over the dead ball line so the Poms get it on half way. And lets do it twice.
Luke standing on someones hand deliberately.
There was lots of other stuff including I think 2 or 3 penalties against us early.


Positives.
Dallin Watene-Zelezniak was outstanding.
NAS , Marty T very good , how come Marty only played about 40 minutes? And RFM seemed to play 80?
Masters very good.
Tapine solid.
Luke rocks and diamonds. But the diamonds were good. Just the rocks were more dumbness.

We will be better at the end of the year with a few subtracted players (Te Maire Martin for one) and a few added players ..Tohu Harris, Shaun Johnson. Roger Tuivasa-Sheck for starters.

Kearney is very good at coaching out the stupidity factor...something that gets overlooked a lot...but you see less stupid stuff from the Warriors and before his time here the Kiwis.

Part of how he deals with it is sacking players.

Now the challenge is Madges. I feel confident he will get on top of it too....part of his limitations are a lack of choices.

 

[jonesy101]

My end of year squad (which is not going to happen with the usual 'off-season' surgery that takes place):

1 Roger Tuivasa-Sheck
2 Dallin Watene-Zelezniac
3 Dean Whare
4 Esan Marsters
5 Jordan Rapana
6 Kodi Nikorima
7 Shaun Johnson
8 Jesse Bromwich
9 Slade Griffin (Presuming that Luke has either retired from rep footy by then or will be getting surgery for his shoulder)
10 Martin Taupau
11 Joseph Tapine
12 Tohu Harris Harris
13 Adam Blair
14 Brandon Smith
15 Nelson Asofa-Solomona
16 Lesson Ah Mau
17 James Fisher-Harris

18 Jamayne Isaako
19 Te Maire Martin
20 Isaac Liu
21 Herman Ese'ese
22 Corey Harawira-Naera

Ken Maumalo, Joseph Manu, Peta Hiku (the only other FG half option I can think of apart from Benji/Foran), Raymond Faitala-Marina, Alex Glenn, Jared Warea-Hargreaves on standby for any injuries.
Have not considered players that were in the Pacific tests as I don't like disruptions to any of the international teams, but Bunty Afoa and a trim and fit Sam Kasiano would be useful for the Kiwis.

 

[brightman]

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/re...l-in-droves-says-bennett-20180623-p4zn9m.html
Does anyone have links to the coaches past game presses?

 

[WarriorBall]

Sorry mate, I don't see it that way. He's the senior prop in the rotation, that first penalty he gave away led to their first try, his jersey grab led to their second. That's not good enough for our top Kiwis team.

There were 94 jersey grabs in the game, 50 from us 44 from them so it's fair to say he wasn't alone in that regard, we all know he's gotta dumb penalty in him because he's trying to play role of the enforcer .... mate, I thought he did good job on Sam Burgess in testing conditions today, he shortened him up a couple of times.

I've never been much of a fan of his but I wouldn't discard him entirely from the 17 for the next match just because Bromwich will likely come back in.

No. Just no.

You'll probably have to suffer through then, can't see him not getting picked again on that performance.

 

[wrighty]

My analysis and I have a different view than many of you:

1) Fantastic game. Great advertisement for rugby league. Even though we lost we did the jersey proud.
2) This is the best English team I have ever seen. Someone mentioned the years of Offiah etc, they weren't as good then because they didn't have the dominance up front they enjoy now. We need to realise that we have a real fight on our hands to be number 2 in the world. I do think we would have taken them to the wire with even one or two more of our gun players in the line up.
3) Herman Ese'ese is the worst person to represent NZ in rugby league I can ever recall. He botched a try in the making at one end and then they quickly scored at the other end which ended the contest. If we had've had our full strength team then he wouldn't have played. Hopefully he is never picked again under any circumstances.
4) JWH is my man of the match in a losing team. You either give it to him or NAS. For the first ten minutes JWH was invisible but it turned out he was biding his time. And then he began to unleash. He did play as our pack leader. At one point he got right into Sam Burgess's face and roughed him up to send a message to the whole english pack. He also did some barn storming runs/hit ups that established momentum for the rest of the set. I think he would've showed better had we used him back from the interchange better. Yet again Bennett schooled us with his use of the bench and timing his changes. Right after half time he put all his guns on the field while we were resting ours for the last 15 minutes of the match presumably. Our strategy did not pay dividends as they got right on top of us.
5) Some of you are complaining about the reffing. Presumably the same people who are dissing JWH. Remember that we must have kicked ball out on the full 3 times from the restart. So that is three of those penalties you are counting right there. I actually really enjoyed the reffing including the allowing of the english try in the corner, and thought it was the best reffing I had seen in some time. I also enjoyed the Luke wasn't sent to the bin with a yellow card for standing on the bloke's hand.
6) Nikorima and Te Maire Martin played better than what I thought they would. We didn't lose because of them. And Nikorima actually single handedly created one of the tries. I don't actually have a handle on why we lost. Just a lack of posession really that stymied our chance to score more. We can and will beat them in the future.
7) Slade Griffin - was ok.

 

[jonesy101]

My analysis and I have a different view than many of you:

1) Fantastic game. Great advertisement for rugby league. Even though we lost we did the jersey proud.
2) This is the best English team I have ever seen. Someone mentioned the years of Offiah etc, they weren't as good then because they didn't have the dominance up front they enjoy now. We need to realise that we have a real fight on our hands to be number 2 in the world. I do think we would have taken them to the wire with even one or two more of our gun players in the line up.
3) Herman Ese'ese is the worst person to represent NZ in rugby league I can ever recall. He botched a try in the making at one end and then they quickly scored at the other end which ended the contest. If we had've had our full strength team then he wouldn't have played. Hopefully he is never picked again under any circumstances.
4) JWH is my man of the match in a losing team. You either give it to him or NAS. For the first ten minutes JWH was invisible but it turned out he was biding his time. And then he began to unleash. He did play as our pack leader. At one point he got right into Sam Burgess's face and roughed him up to send a message to the whole english pack. He also did some barn storming runs/hit ups that established momentum for the rest of the set. I think he would've showed better had we used him back from the interchange better. Yet again Bennett schooled us with his use of the bench and timing his changes. Right after half time he put all his guns on the field while we were resting ours for the last 15 minutes of the match presumably. Our strategy did not pay dividends as they got right on top of us.
5) Some of you are complaining about the reffing. Presumably the same people who are dissing JWH. Remember that we must have kicked ball out on the full 3 times from the restart. So that is three of those penalties you are counting right there. I actually really enjoyed the reffing including the allowing of the english try in the corner, and thought it was the best reffing I had seen in some time. I also enjoyed the Luke wasn't sent to the bin with a yellow card for standing on the bloke's hand.
6) Nikorima and Te Maire Martin played better than what I thought they would. We didn't lose because of them. And Nikorima actually single handedly created one of the tries. I don't actually have a handle on why we lost. Just a lack of posession really that stymied our chance to score more. We can and will beat them in the future.
7) Slade Griffin - was ok.

Dallin Watene-Zelezniak was my man of the match in a losing side. Big call on Ese'ese on debut. I'd like to think they would look past those few minutes he played today if his NRL form suggests he deserves re-selection at the end of the year. Your man of the match has had an ordinary game or two for NZ in the past as well remember.

 

[wrighty]

Dallin Watene-Zelezniak was my man of the match in a losing side. Big call on Ese'ese on debut. I'd like to think they would look past those few minutes he played today if his NRL form suggests he deserves re-selection at the end of the year. Your man of the match has had an ordinary game or two for NZ in the past as well remember.

But I feel those ordinary past games are impacting everyone's view of today's performance. He did well today.

 

[Iafetas Kickstand Wang]

Saw only the second half. Against the Poms you have to control the ball. Too many errors from overplaying their hands. Probably lacked a bit of direction when Issac was off. RFM exhibited the old hands like flippers conundrum.

Once the Poms took the lions share of possession they really targeted Nikorima and he had some howler moments in defence. On the try that went right through him he sat back and then gave a very poor effort to make the tackle.

Back five were excellent. Marsters and Dallin Watene-Zelezniak had great games.

I think Roger Tuivasa-Sheck, Shaun Johnson and Tohu Harris in particular for Nikorima (perhaps he is the utility on the bench), RFM and sadly perhaps Ken would offer a lot. Most of the young fellas though had a really good test.