Staff Ivan Cleary

OMG

Warriors 1st Grader
May 18, 2012
3,991
Churchur
I like your post.

Only point is the one about Mannering. Mannering was the understudy for Price & I didnt see anyone else stepping up to take that mantle. So by default, he was the best man for the job. And given he's held that post under Bluey & now Matty Elliot - two seasons later - it couldnt have been that bad a decision..... .

Although I do agree, we still lack a natural leader in the group - someone who wants that role - comfortable in leadership and not afraid to fire the boys up when they're down.
Too much pressure for a young fulla, a co-Captaincy thing with Luck would have been ideal for him at the time, even now when the pressure is on him, he panics and only age and experience gives you the tools to deal with football pressure, Panic creates idiots out of the best players.
He is still 2 seasons away from being a good Captain IMO.
There is nothing worse than watching your Captain do something stupid on the league field, whether it be a bad pass/offload,miss tackle or a stupid penalty- He is the one that should have the least errors in the team. I believe he has come a long way but is still not quite there.
 

slaughterhouse.sa

1st Grade Fringe
May 26, 2012
1,617
Why all these emo/reflective threads lol

Obviously Cleary had a bit of success with some warriors youngsters.

Biggest thing with Elliott is that he realises there are issues - with attitude and lack of development.
I have noticed a big improvement on the whole with attitude of NRL.

I think we will notice the improve of youngsters coming through that will really be the best thing for the club.

People go on about Lowrie and Nielsen - these arent blokes Elliot signed.
They are just their for the interim until our young bucks step up.
And they way guys like laumape have taken up the challenge, wont be long to a few more join them.

Elliot might be a massive fan of Bukuya, Sam or Sione Lousi and Ben Henry.
 

Akkerz

1st Grade Fringe
Contributor
Jun 22, 2012
1,095
The edge of insanity
John Hart definately a loss
Cleary definately not. He's getting the kudos for Panthers improvement but he has one of the best, if not the best footie brain to advise & assist. Would he be as successful without Gus on hand ? Possibly but personally I doubt it.
 
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Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
22,638
Well the results and stats speak for themselves, Sup. As for having a host of second rowers playing prop and centre, I guess you mean having big strong centres or makeshift centres (Ropati, Koopu, Mannering, etc.) and reasonably mobile props (Villasanti, Price, Wiki, Tuimavave, Lillyman, Ah Mau, Royal, etc.) who can tackle? I'm not sure what you think is wrong with this (talking about rope'a'dope and results over several seasons or vs a team like Manly doesn't really say much without giving actual examples or results that make your point). Some of these decisions would have been tactical, others would have been forced via injury. We've also had a few notable specialist centres (Toopi, Tate, etc.) and a few genuine props (Latimore, Packer, etc.). That we made the finals 4 times in 6 years seems to indicate that your "several seasons" comment is a bit off. Your rope'a'dope comment alludes to tiring out or out-tackling other teams? Again, not sure what you think is wrong with that, since if that was what Cleary was doing, it apparently worked quite effectively. The Manly comment is just strange, as we've obviously fared better against quality teams (like Manly) under Cleary than we have otherwise, though granted we did perform well against top teams this year... for all the good that did.

Yep we made the finals four times and 2011 was special.

A long way from where we are now.

I used Manly as a comparisson to Ivan Warrior league becasue they are a balanced traditional style rugby league team. While they emphasize good defence across the entire Unit , they also recruit Forwards who can do the Bussiness going forward.

No tackle bot stacking at Manly.

In contrast Ivan uses the likes of

Mannering

Jeremy latimore

Michael Luck.

Lewis Brown

Elijah Taylor

Under Ivan Mannering never passes the ball / almost never.

Same deal with Taylor

Same deal eventually with Brown

Why ?

Becasue there is no attacking structure under Ivan. They run and kick it to one player on the last. In the mean time Manly finish top four year in year out / dominate some of those seasons with their balanced recruitment / template built on D and secound phase.

Ivan Over did it aye , he had to import Feleti Mateo to fill the void of no ball playing forwards in a NZ team ( that's weird bro )

Compare Ivan to Daniel Andersons teams.

Go forward attacking forwards with secound phase game in them , support runners , centers that can go wide early and play some ball somewhat like Manly now ( one straight running center and a ball playing center ) Ivan didn't recruit fk all in the outside backs that was plain dumb , that's why Andersons team won a minor premiership after dominating the NRL and finished top four the following season and Ivans Warriors limped and tackled and hung in there into the finals four times.

Just my subjective veiw of Ivans tenure. He would have been fooked for ideas without Manu to kick to.
 

snake77

Warriors 1st Grader
Jul 12, 2013
9,891
Auckland
His template was achieved by playing multiple players out of position to allow him to have a field full of tackling secound rowers for props , centers , and well secound rowers. A clubs development of specialist players long term can't sustain that. It's a form of Ropa doping.....clever tactic that will work when all things click together , but against a wide range of scenarios / over several seasons it will mean there are teams / styles you will never be able to out compete.
Cleary and Gus are recruiting an awful lot of second rowers now, coincidence probably not as we've seen it before.
Their rebuilding strategy seems to be recruit, recycle, recruit.

Elliott is on good track to fix mess that Cleary created. TBH. We were lucky to make GF 2011.
At the moment we have Gus saying that he and Cleary inherited a mess at the Panthers with the development pathways at the Panthers which Ivan is fixing up. We have Elliot saying our development structures are all wrong.

id put losing ali lauititi on that list. the guy was perhaps the warriors best player at the time, definitely the best forward in the comp. he was the spark that kept the machine running, with his abillty to offload, good hands and a physical presence
This was so ridiculous from the reason they sacked to everyone thinking he wouldn't last in the UK and get homesick and come back. Well we are still waiting for him to get home sick.

Biggest ever mistake Ian Robson.
Good for marketing but a waste of space after that. Still laugh at the NZRL rep or Warriors board member complaining about the amount of money Robson was wasting.
"He's hired a helicopter now to fly out to Waiheke, what a waste"
"Where are you?"
"On the helicopter"
The rugby league types in NZ would have been living it up when he was around, great food and helicopters. lol.
 
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Richie

1st Grade Fringe
Jul 28, 2012
372
Kemp and Moon were nothing buys. I hope Neilson ends up more in the Tate category, but Tate was special because he was more than a player, he was a backline leader. Maloney developed into the half leader we couldn't keep :( but TL is in that mold as well (I just wish we'd got him back a 3 years ago). For all his skills, Shaun Johnson has not one iota of leadership quality about him. He needs to shadow Stacey Jones 24/7 and watch the kind of respect that man elicits despite his quiet demeanour. It was the same when Stacey was on the field. He didn't need to scream at players or throw skip-hop-no-look-passes to impress, people just knew he gave everything he had for the jumper and wanted to emulate that.
 

snake77

Warriors 1st Grader
Jul 12, 2013
9,891
Auckland
The problem is whenever we find some semblance of consistency we make decisions to stuff it up like we have got over our previous issues and everything will be all good now. Look at around the time of the 2002 Grand Final and the amount of experience we were flicking off at that time in Campion and Cleary. 2003 was pretty good but we cam back with a big fall in 2004, I wasn't sure on letting Anderson go so easily as we never had any success before that.

With Cleary and Hart we had stability and his record was actually pretty good, we missed the finals in 2006 (started on negative points) and 2009 (tragedy in the offseason so I can forgive that one).

The 2011 Grand Final may have papered over a few issues with the team as we saw in 2012 with the experience taken out of the previous years squad.

While Cleary was here we were not as well resourced as where are now, it is a pity he didn't get a chance with the new financial resources the club now has.

In saying all of that we still had games under Ivan where the team would totally fall apart and give up. He would get them up more often then not and mainly towards the end of the year.

When it was announced he was leaving I thought it could be time for a new voice and new philosophies.
 

Jordan G

Guest
Cleary to me has always been a steady hand. He can get his teams to perform at a reasonably consistent level, but the problem was always the mindset. It was always a "don't lose first" mentality as opposed to a "win first" mentality" that the champion teams all have.

Through that we were able to find some consistent results, but if it weren't for some last minute heroics against the Storm and Tigers his finals record would still be on the goose egg. The problem with the mentality I mentioned previously is that while we achieved more consistent results, come finals time when the good teams stepped up a level, we couldn't.

Yeah we had some wins in the finals under Cleary, we also got absolutely walloped by the Broncos, Cowboys, Manly, and never really looked likely to threaten in the 2011 grand final or the previous years game against the Gold Coast. Teams with a strong mentality don't often suffer big losses like that in finals games and it happened a little too often under Cleary for my liking.

I think he's a very good coach who can take you a fair part of the way, but I never saw him as a premiership winning coach which was why I wasn't fussed when he left.
 

Richie

1st Grade Fringe
Jul 28, 2012
372
I wouldn't have been so fussed on Cleary leaving if we'd have had an obvious plan in place following his departure. But it seemed all we had was a short-term hope that the Bluey experiment would work and all would be well. I'm not even that down on him being picked for the job in the first place, as his previous record with the Kiwis and Leeds indicate that he COULD have been the man for the job. It's just that there seemed to be no short-mid-long term plan for life after Ivan. Surely our admin staff factored in the possibility that we'd suffer a downturn and have to clear the decks to allow Bluey to build the team and style he wanted. Yet when things went sour, everyone panicked. I didn't back Bluey beyond last year either, but that was because of his 'everyone's best mate' attitude and seeming unwillingness to make the hard calls. Surely this should have been discussed with admin before his posting, i.e. What are your plans if things go wrong? Are you willing to sack players that don't perform? Hell, he should have been the one asking what rope the board was willing to give him if things went pear shaped. Instead, there seems to have been an all around 'hit and hope' mentality, which is just not good enough in professional sport. You don't sack a fairly successful coach without doing everything that you can to ensure that things wont turn to crap afterwards, or, that if they do, you have some plans in place to recover. Did our admin or Bluey himself do that? It doesn't look like it.

The problem with the "he could only take us so far" reasoning is that we're no longer where we were. That ground we covered, now needs to be recovered. Then we've got to hope that we can go that step further. Is there any reason to think that we're in good shape to reach the sort of platform Cleary had established, let alone go beyond it? Beyond our fondest and most sincere hopes, that is. People have criticised Clearly coached teams for limping into the finals, but I don't see anything in Elliot's record that trumps it or suggests he's the man to take us further. Even when he had successful regular seasons with Canberra and Penrith, they'd get bundled out of the finals quick smart. We made a GF and a GF qualifier (from 8th no less, the first time this had ever been done), and got trounced, but both time it was vs a dominant Manly team against which the Warriors in no way deserve to be compared with.

Past a certain point, this discussion is pointless and can become an exercise in sour grapes. What makes me now think that sacking Cleary was perhaps our biggest mistake isn't necessarily that he was the world's greatest coach (he wasn't) or that he might have delivered us a premiership (we'll never know), it's that we obviously hadn't prepared for life after his departure. THAT is almost unforgivable.
 

mrblonde

Warriors 1st Grader
Apr 14, 2012
4,072
Auckland
What makes me now think that sacking Cleary was perhaps our biggest mistake isn't necessarily that he was the world's greatest coach (he wasn't) or that he might have delivered us a premiership (we'll never know), it's that we obviously hadn't prepared for life after his departure. THAT is almost unforgivable.

I'd like to think that the management have a scenario for if Elliott walked in one day and said "Screw you guys, I'm going home!" - obviously McFadden/Henry would have to take over as short term coach, but hopefully there's a list of people the Warriors would make contact with.

I suspect that's not what's taped up on anyone's - like Wayne's - wall though....
 
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Richie

1st Grade Fringe
Jul 28, 2012
372
Point taken, mrblone. It's not always what we want, but also what we can induce to come here. With coaches, just as with players. Like everyone else, I was praying for a Bennett or a Bellamy to come here (or a Hasler). I think we dodged a bullet not going with Kearney (I rate ME above him) and I think Stuart would be a bad fit for our club. I reckon that I'd rather see mega dollars pay'd on proven coach who is given a mandate to do what's necessary to fully professionalise our club, than huge dollars pay'd to a Tomkins. But we'd have to be willing to pay those dollars over a minimum of 5 years (regardless of teething problems), and be willing to swallow our pride if said coach felt the need to punt local favourites or bring in imports to shore up weaknesses. He'd also have to be given the power to restructure our junior ranks (maybe all the way down to school boys level) in order to make the stars align. It'd require across the board commitment over a sustained period of time. Would our power brokers do it? Would our players go along with it? Would we fans be patient enough to go the distance? I'd like to think yes, but I'm not sure if even I'm buying it.
 
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blcu2003

1st Grade Fringe
Sep 8, 2013
264
Point taken, mrblone. It's not always what we want, but also what we can induce to come here. With coaches, just as with players. Like everyone else, I was praying for a Bennett or a Bellamy to come here (or a Hasler). I think we dodged a bullet not going with Kearney (I rate ME above him) and I think Stuart would be a bad fit for our club. I reckon that I'd rather see mega dollars pay'd on proven coach who is given a mandate to do what's necessary to fully professionalise our club, than huge dollars pay'd to a Tomkins. But we'd have to be willing to pay those dollars over a minimum of 5 years (regardless of teething problems), and be willing to swallow our pride if said coach felt the need to punt local favourites or bring in imports to shore up weaknesses. He'd also have to be given the power to restructure our junior ranks (maybe all the way down to school boys level) in order to make the stars align. It'd require across the board commitment over a sustained period of time. Would our power brokers do it? Would our players go along with it? Would we fans be patient enough to go the distance? I'd like to think yes, but I'm not sure if even I'm buying it.



I'm not so sure about the Bellamy scream at the top of your lungs approach. And I'm not sure the no prisoner winner takes all approach will work. Didnt Daniel Andersen try that in his last year? his no player is bigger then the club attitude with Ali, and then ostracising himself to the point where we nearly had a revolt amongst the players? Matty Elliot or any coach here wont risk doing that because they know Uncle Ivan will be waiting in the wings, ready to convert them to Panthers..... they also know theres limited appeal from players wanting to come to Auckland...... its a double edge sword that makes this club a real challenge for any coach.
 
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Richie

1st Grade Fringe
Jul 28, 2012
372
Yeah, you might be right about Bellamy's abrasive nature, though I also hear he's got a decent sense a humour (dry, my style) for a guy with his intensity. I more meant that he obviously knows how to build and maintain a winning team environment. But I'd rather have a drill sergeant that ruffles feathers than a Mr. nice guy who makes excuses for mediocrity. At least with the former we could work out which birds are too fat, need plucking or, where necessary, stuffing for the hangi. It'd be nice to get a perfect coach how can get results without busting heads, but I don't know that such a coach exists. Tooves, Hasler and Bennett are hardly renowned for their easy going demeanours either, though Wayne's laconic use of sarcasm and irony make it hard to tell that he's actually spitting razor blades.
 

JBmurc

1st Grade Fringe
May 19, 2013
920
Central Otago
true. we werent there defensively that year, but I remember thinking we were making big strides from the year before. It was a much more ridgit structure. The stats tell a story.....

2009 Against record 545
2010 Against record 486
2011 Against record 393
2013 Against record 554


yes also having James Maloney(made 204 of the 504 points) in the team was a good reason for the great 2011 season along with luck's defense one of the best all round
warriors seasons I can remember .......biggest loss 40-10 points to the bronco's (which on current new finals rules would have seen us out)

Also on the coaching factor I still put down much of the players performances to the players how many years have these guys been playing the game do they really need spoon feed how to play footy ever week?
Go from playing great one game to the next who cares !! the coach does that ?
 
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blcu2003

1st Grade Fringe
Sep 8, 2013
264
Yeah, you might be right about Bellamy's abrasive nature, though I also hear he's got a decent sense a humour (dry, my style) for a guy with his intensity. I more meant that he obviously knows how to build and maintain a winning team environment. But I'd rather have a drill sergeant that ruffles feathers than a Mr. nice guy who makes excuses for mediocrity. At least with the former we could work out which birds are too fat, need plucking or, where necessary, stuffing for the hangi. It'd be nice to get a perfect coach how can get results without busting heads, but I don't know that such a coach exists. Tooves, Hasler and Bennett are hardly renowned for their easy going demeanours either, though Wayne's laconic use of sarcasm and irony make it hard to tell that he's actually spitting razor blades.


Yeah, maybe you are right. Maybe its all a facade, and there's a softer side in him that we just dont see. I mean, he must be doing something right to earn the trust, respect and loyalty of his players. He looks like he treats his guys like poo, but perhaps its probably the complete opposite outside of work. He could be one of those dr jackyl mr hyde type bosses. The kind that will call you a d*ckhead to your face, then invite you for dinner the next night to meet his wife and kids.

I agree the Mr nice guy theory isnt going to work. Perhaps they need a co-coach - a mr nice guy along with mr a**hole. A good cop, bad cop kind of thing. Something out of the box never done approach would be ok with me. The conventional style hasnt paid off in 20 yrs. And I dont think more of the same is the answer.
 
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