Staff Ivan Cleary

blcu2003

1st Grade Fringe
Sep 8, 2013
264
Yes, you bros make some really good points. Perhaps biggest mistake is a bit of an overkill.

But a mistake for me, none the less.

Lets look forward to 2014 with renewed optimism and hope!
 
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edd

1st Grade Fringe
Jun 17, 2013
1,217
Ok got ya.
Don't know -although the way i remember it our defence was pretty good all year- it was the attack that clicked into gear late In the year ( stats may probe me wrong there?) our attitude always seemed better on defence under cleary- ( again stats may prove me wrong but) I'd be suprised if we conceded more points in any of the cleary years than we have in the last two - ESP his last couple of years- I thought he had them defending well
I just remember getting butchered by the broncos one week, then half time against the tigers our D line becomes brutally honest. 80 mins of quality against the storm and a vain effort against the sea eagles in the final.. Not the stuff of coaching legend... Just more classic warriors action... over and again...
 

blcu2003

1st Grade Fringe
Sep 8, 2013
264
I just remember getting butchered by the broncos one week, then half time against the tigers our D line becomes brutally honest. 80 mins of quality against the storm and a vain effort against the sea eagles in the final.. Not the stuff of coaching legend... Just more classic warriors action... over and again...

true. we werent there defensively that year, but I remember thinking we were making big strides from the year before. It was a much more ridgit structure. The stats tell a story.....

2009 Against record 545
2010 Against record 486
2011 Against record 393
2013 Against record 554
 
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Moz

1st Grade Fringe
May 9, 2012
582
Gold Coast
NO

but I would take Gus Gould as director of football operations today not only has he got the balls to make the tough decisions he could personally handle recruiting big name players
 

edd

1st Grade Fringe
Jun 17, 2013
1,217
true. we werent there defensively that year, but I remember thinking we were making big strides from the year before. It was a much more ridgit structure. The stats tell a story.....

2009 Against record 545
2010 Against record 486
2011 Against record 393
2013 Against record 554
Rennie turned SBW and the Chiefs round in one pre season... Two seasons in charge and two titles under the belt... That's an awesome coach...

Pardon the union...
 
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Richie

1st Grade Fringe
Jul 28, 2012
372
I remember our worst losing margin ever very vividly. It happened this year vs Penrith. Of our 6 worst losses, only 1 occurred under Cleary (our 5th worst in 2008, vs Manly). In the 6 full years he was in charge, we came in 3rd, 5th, 12th, 11th, 2nd and 5th best for pts conceded. The last 2 years we've been 14th and 13th. Again, Cleary took us to 4 finals series (including 1 GF) in 6 years. Here we sit, 2 years later, dreaming about scraping into the top eight 3 years after his departure (2014). Say what you will about Cleary, but there can be ZERO doubt that we were a far superior defensive team under his stewardship. And if what they say about defence and attitude is correct... well, I'll leave it there.[DOUBLEPOST=1378639056][/DOUBLEPOST]Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree with the assertion that letting him go (sorry, giving him the punt) was the worst ever decision our club has made.
 

Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
22,765
I remember our worst losing margin ever very vividly. It happened this year vs Penrith. Of our 6 worst losses, only 1 occurred under Cleary (our 5th worst in 2008, vs Manly). In the 6 full years he was in charge, we came in 3rd, 5th, 12th, 11th, 2nd and 5th best for pts conceded. The last 2 years we've been 14th and 13th. Again, Cleary took us to 4 finals series (including 1 GF) in 6 years. Here we sit, 2 years later, dreaming about scraping into the top eight 3 years after his departure (2014). Say what you will about Cleary, but there can be ZERO doubt that we were a far superior defensive team under his stewardship. And if what they say about defence and attitude is correct... well, I'll leave it there.[DOUBLEPOST=1378639056][/DOUBLEPOST]Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree with the assertion that letting him go (sorry, giving him the punt) was the worst ever decision our club has made.
His template was achieved by playing multiple players out of position to allow him to have a field full of tackling secound rowers for props , centers , and well secound rowers.

A clubs development of specialist players long term can't sustain that. It's a form of Ropa doping.....clever tactic that will work when all things click together , but against a wide range of scenarios / over several seasons it will mean there are teams / styles you will never be able to out compete.

A club with the best Center pairing in the NRL and balanced specialist Props Loose forwards etc like Manly will beat an Ivan team up nine times out of ten imo
 
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Ever Hopeful

1st Grade Fringe
Contributor
Feb 24, 2013
2,989
I remember our worst losing margin ever very vividly. It happened this year vs Penrith. Of our 6 worst losses, only 1 occurred under Cleary (our 5th worst in 2008, vs Manly). In the 6 full years he was in charge, we came in 3rd, 5th, 12th, 11th, 2nd and 5th best for pts conceded. The last 2 years we've been 14th and 13th. Again, Cleary took us to 4 finals series (including 1 GF) in 6 years. Here we sit, 2 years later, dreaming about scraping into the top eight 3 years after his departure (2014). Say what you will about Cleary, but there can be ZERO doubt that we were a far superior defensive team under his stewardship. And if what they say about defence and attitude is correct... well, I'll leave it there.[DOUBLEPOST=1378639056][/DOUBLEPOST]Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree with the assertion that letting him go (sorry, giving him the punt) was the worst ever decision our club has made.

I agree that Cleary introduced a great degree of professionalism and discipline. However, much of his time coincided with Steve Price as captain - and Steve led from the front in this regard.

And I'm not saying that Mannering doesn't lead from the front now, but he has never captained a premiership winning team
 

Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
22,765
are you sure about that? a Matai/Lyon pairing with Kite, Stewart, got beaten up by +12 this afternoon by an Ivan Cleary lead team?.
Was Ivan playing ? (jks) yeah nah he is a good coach just playing devils advocate / stirring the pot. Ivan got them in that finals game as well ( downed Manly aye ) !
I just think Ivan got better D from his sides by over stacking them with secound rowers. As opposed to this regime where not so great tacklers who are specialists like johnson Hurrell Laumpe to a lesser xtent......have picked up their D individually which gives a better outlook long term.

Glen Fisiahi failed to be a defensive player and had lots of time under Ivan relative to the other players.

To be fair it's hard to know wether pre Owen Glen if Ivan was supported financially by Eric to keep recruiting towards the end there.

Like the rest of us Ivan was possibly banking pn the Akland Juniors becoming Dalley M's as they got older.......certainly Fisiahi's 4 year contract smacked of counting U 20's chickens before they hatched.
 
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Richie

1st Grade Fringe
Jul 28, 2012
372
His template was achieved by playing multiple players out of position to allow him to have a field full of tackling secound rowers for props , centers , and well secound rowers.

A clubs development of specialist players long term can't sustain that. It's a form of Ropa doping.....clever tactic that will work when all things click together , but against a wide range of scenarios / over several seasons it will mean there are teams / styles you will never be able to out compete.

A club with the best Center pairing in the NRL and balanced specialist Props Loose forwards etc like Manly will beat an Ivan team up nine times out of ten imo
Well the results and stats speak for themselves, Sup. As for having a host of second rowers playing prop and centre, I guess you mean having big strong centres or makeshift centres (Ropati, Koopu, Mannering, etc.) and reasonably mobile props (Villasanti, Price, Wiki, Tuimavave, Lillyman, Ah Mau, Royal, etc.) who can tackle? I'm not sure what you think is wrong with this (talking about rope'a'dope and results over several seasons or vs a team like Manly doesn't really say much without giving actual examples or results that make your point). Some of these decisions would have been tactical, others would have been forced via injury. We've also had a few notable specialist centres (Toopi, Tate, etc.) and a few genuine props (Latimore, Packer, etc.). That we made the finals 4 times in 6 years seems to indicate that your "several seasons" comment is a bit off. Your rope'a'dope comment alludes to tiring out or out-tackling other teams? Again, not sure what you think is wrong with that, since if that was what Cleary was doing, it apparently worked quite effectively. The Manly comment is just strange, as we've obviously fared better against quality teams (like Manly) under Cleary than we have otherwise, though granted we did perform well against top teams this year... for all the good that did.
 

cro.warrior

1st Grade Fringe
Jul 14, 2013
473
Sydney
I remember our worst losing margin ever very vividly. It happened this year vs Penrith. Of our 6 worst losses, only 1 occurred under Cleary (our 5th worst in 2008, vs Manly). In the 6 full years he was in charge, we came in 3rd, 5th, 12th, 11th, 2nd and 5th best for pts conceded. The last 2 years we've been 14th and 13th. Again, Cleary took us to 4 finals series (including 1 GF) in 6 years. Here we sit, 2 years later, dreaming about scraping into the top eight 3 years after his departure (2014). Say what you will about Cleary, but there can be ZERO doubt that we were a far superior defensive team under his stewardship. And if what they say about defence and attitude is correct... well, I'll leave it there.[DOUBLEPOST=1378639056][/DOUBLEPOST]Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree with the assertion that letting him go (sorry, giving him the punt) was the worst ever decision our club has made.
Loss 50-6 in 2010 vs Tigers, also that season we got pumped few times.
 

blcu2003

1st Grade Fringe
Sep 8, 2013
264
Loss 50-6 in 2010 vs Tigers, also that season we got pumped few times.

I will admit, Cleary was no magician. He had no magical powers that was going to turn this club around in one year. But as the stats have shown, he was making progress. I felt he was building the culture of this club into something special.....& we were heading in the right direction. The pieces were all there, and he was close to having solved the puzzle.
We got to the GF in 2011. If he stayed on for two more years, who knows, we could all be talking finals footy right now & not reminiscing about the past....
 

Sebastian

1st Grade Fringe
Apr 13, 2012
1,321
The hairy ball sack is though. That Ivan's gone. Ain't never coming back. We gambled. Lost. I think most would agree. But i don't know much good if any can be concluded. By reminiscing.

ME still has a lot of power at his finger tips. Especially with Owen's bank book at his side. To turn the club around. We ain't done for. In fact regardless of the past. With Tomkins signature. Added to our already stacked collection. Talent isn't one thing we are short of. Consistency, size, power. YES. Talent, brilliance, speed. NO.

So if ME can somehow show the balls to get this group into line. Or add to the group. Or minus. To get the balance right. I certainly have hope. However suspect his past at Penrith. ME showed he's got some talent as a coach by getting Fish, Konnie, Mannering to improve out of sight. And for rookies to look ready and prepared like Laumape and Matagi. Which is no easy task. Getting the balance right. Between brilliance and consistency will be the making or breaking of Matt Elliott as NZ Warriors coach.
 
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mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
Jun 21, 2012
22,810
Mt. Wellington, Auckland
The key loss was John Hart. Very astute. I'd get him back, give Scurrah the archer and appoint Hart CEO.
Ive been told by a family member of Harts that as long as Scurrah is at the helm, he will NEVER go back. He is filthy on Scurrah for undermining him, going to the board behind his back and putting the whole Bluey thing into motion and executing it. Hart really rated Cleary, wanted to give him the 3rd year he was after and knew hiring Bluey was a mistake...
 

Buck777

Guest
Ive been told by a family member of Harts that as long as Scurrah is at the helm, he will NEVER go back. He is filthy on Scurrah for undermining him, going to the board behind his back and putting the whole Bluey thing into motion and executing it. Hart really rated Cleary, wanted to give him the 3rd year he was after and knew hiring Bluey was a mistake...
I'd heard similar things about scurrah v hart. If it was between those two I'd have hart in a heartbeat! As far as Cleary is concerned, I don't know. We forget we went through some pretty torrid coaching crap with him. The continuing with playing Stacy jones when it was obvious to everyone that he was past it seemed to go over his head, as well as the predictable kick it to Manu on the 5th. Plus I have some good inside bully on how the defrocking of Steve Prices captaincy went down , and Cleary had a big hand in that. But then 2011 happened, so we tend to forget the horrors of 2009. Wouldn't want him back though.
 
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OMG

Warriors 1st Grader
May 18, 2012
3,991
Churchur
While Cleary was here I hated how he played the team, his worst decision was to appoint Mannners Captain, I hated 2nd rowers playing centre, but can understand why and how that happened, his genius was actually understanding team dynamic and utilising game plans to suit, this is the NRL and every team can beat you no matter how well you play as quite often a referee can influence a result.
Elliot has had more resources and a better squad than any Coach has had in the history of the Warriors but can't even make the 8 WTF,
some people imagine that he has done better than Bluey, I say this is BULLSHIT, he has a better roster, better Coaching staff, better equipment, more mature squad with less injuries, but all we really have seen is a team that competes for 5 to 10 minutes longer than last years team, the team did show structure and the ability to compete and much more at times last season.
One of my gripes is the game plan FFS, league is a simple game that relies on instinct more than structure, once you start over complicating shit you actually have to start thinking about what you are doing rather than just doing, which is what I believe is the biggest problem. KISS-keep it simple stupid.
The game plan we see week to week requires hole runners 3 and 4 wide nearly every play which wouldn't be so bad if we had Papaali playing 11,12 and 13 but we have Manners,Taylor,Mateo and the offensive machine Lowrie with one of the worst impact players in NRL history,Peyroux..WTF what sort of moron plays a team this way, same sort of moron that has one of the worst if not the worst August/September records in the history of the game, fucken keep it simple stupid...
Too many people around here think that the players aren't giving 100%, that's a load of shit IMO, those players are giving as much as they can give with the game plan and team selections that are being given to them by the Coach, Elliot will never win a Premiership and I doubt that while Bell is in control of recruitment the Warriors will win a Premiership.
We have most if not all of the players that can win a Premiership in the roster already, it is about having a Coach that can bring the best out of the individual and utilise them to the advantage of the team.
IMO The team has shown this to be true but have only played at 80% of their potential in doing so, they had so much more to give and improve on in their good wins, that good Coaching and strategy would provide.
 

blcu2003

1st Grade Fringe
Sep 8, 2013
264
I'd heard similar things about scurrah v hart. If it was between those two I'd have hart in a heartbeat! As far as Cleary is concerned, I don't know. We forget we went through some pretty torrid coaching crap with him. The continuing with playing Stacy jones when it was obvious to everyone that he was past it seemed to go over his head, as well as the predictable kick it to Manu on the 5th. Plus I have some good inside bully on how the defrocking of Steve Prices captaincy went down , and Cleary had a big hand in that. But then 2011 happened, so we tend to forget the horrors of 2009. Wouldn't want him back though.

Fair points Buck.

The thing with Cleary though, is that he played for us - in the GF as well. So he knows the history of the club, he's been through the up's and down's. And this was his first stint as a head coach. No doubt he made mistakes, there's no denying that. But if you look at where the club was when he first arrived, to where he left it in 2011 - big strides from the dark days of Tony Kemp were made. 2011 grand finalist in first grade, reserve grade & U20. Amazing effort.

Now thats not to say that Matty Elliott isnt capable of doing the same or even eclipsing Cleary. But the thing that erks me about ME, is that he left Canberra in a mess, and he left Penrith as a club in a mess. You speak to any Penrith or Canberra loyalist and not one good word is spoken about ME.And what does he know about the kiwi culture? about the way polynesians think and play? there werent many islanders playing over in Canberra or at Penrith from what i could remember. Does he have a close ally to turn to for advise on local culture ? Ackland is gone, Iro is gone, and our assistant coach he someone he brought over from Canberra.

I know its going to take him a few seasons to figure it all out, but I fear he's going to be a pleaser rather than a coach who is willing to make the tough decisions and have a winner takes all attitude.
 
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blcu2003

1st Grade Fringe
Sep 8, 2013
264
While Cleary was here I hated how he played the team, his worst decision was to appoint Mannners Captain, I hated 2nd rowers playing centre, but can understand why and how that happened, his genius was actually understanding team dynamic and utilising game plans to suit, this is the NRL and every team can beat you no matter how well you play as quite often a referee can influence a result.
Elliot has had more resources and a better squad than any Coach has had in the history of the Warriors but can't even make the 8 WTF,
some people imagine that he has done better than Bluey, I say this is BULLSHIT, he has a better roster, better Coaching staff, better equipment, more mature squad with less injuries, but all we really have seen is a team that competes for 5 to 10 minutes longer than last years team, the team did show structure and the ability to compete and much more at times last season.
One of my gripes is the game plan FFS, league is a simple game that relies on instinct more than structure, once you start over complicating shit you actually have to start thinking about what you are doing rather than just doing, which is what I believe is the biggest problem. KISS-keep it simple stupid.
The game plan we see week to week requires hole runners 3 and 4 wide nearly every play which wouldn't be so bad if we had Papaali playing 11,12 and 13 but we have Manners,Taylor,Mateo and the offensive machine Lowrie with one of the worst impact players in NRL history,Peyroux..WTF what sort of moron plays a team this way, same sort of moron that has one of the worst if not the worst August/September records in the history of the game, fucken keep it simple stupid...
Too many people around here think that the players aren't giving 100%, that's a load of shit IMO, those players are giving as much as they can give with the game plan and team selections that are being given to them by the Coach, Elliot will never win a Premiership and I doubt that while Bell is in control of recruitment the Warriors will win a Premiership.
We have most if not all of the players that can win a Premiership in the roster already, it is about having a Coach that can bring the best out of the individual and utilise them to the advantage of the team.
IMO The team has shown this to be true but have only played at 80% of their potential in doing so, they had so much more to give and improve on in their good wins, that good Coaching and strategy would provide.

I like your post.

Only point is the one about Mannering. Mannering was the understudy for Price & I didnt see anyone else stepping up to take that mantle. So by default, he was the best man for the job. And given he's held that post under Bluey & now Matty Elliot - two seasons later - it couldnt have been that bad a decision..... .

Although I do agree we still lack a natual leader in the group - someone who wants that role - comfortable in leadership and not afraid to fire the boys up when they're down.
 

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