General Ivan Cleary Newsflash

The strummer_old

Guest
It was only 3 weeks ago that some,myself included were suggesting that maybe Ivan had got things sorted and maybe we were in for a decent year.I'm still prepared to give him more time.He will be talking about starting again after the bye and with Manu and Simon back confidence will be boosted.There was a coach in England who was one goal away from the sack about 20 years ago.While Im not saying that Ivan can turn it around like Alex Ferguson did,it shows that just because things arent going well doesnt mean that you are a mug coach.A bit of luck can save you and in Sir Alex's case show the world that you are a genius.Ivan is smart and its not beyond him to turn the season around.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
It was only 3 weeks ago that some,myself included were suggesting that maybe Ivan had got things sorted and maybe we were in for a decent year.I'm still prepared to give him more time.He will be talking about starting again after the bye and with Manu and Simon back confidence will be boosted.There was a coach in England who was one goal away from the sack about 20 years ago.While Im not saying that Ivan can turn it around like Alex Ferguson did,it shows that just because things arent going well doesnt mean that you are a mug coach.A bit of luck can save you and in Sir Alex's case show the world that you are a genius.Ivan is smart and its not beyond him to turn the season around.

Thanks for the calm and non knee jerk response. It's embarrassingly refreshing! :thumb:
 

mrblonde_old

Guest
I guess what I was trying to get at with my post was that frankly I don't know why the SST at this point suddenly starts telling us "Ivan Cleary will be sacked if the Warriors don't make the top 8". I mean, it was like, a week after Portsmouth had doomed themselves to relegation "Portsmouth will not play in the Premier League next year, the Sunday Star Times has learned".

Unless something has happened during the last week that has made the management come to a decision which would appear to I guess everyone - Pro Ivan and Anti Ivan - on this forum kind of obvious.

I suggest his bye weekend would be even less enjoyable and his job a lot less secure if we were 3-5 and had all our top players on board.

Of course, all it needs is Eric Watson and/or Wayne Scurrah to make a public statement saying Ivan enjoys the full support of the Warriors board.
:eek:
And they would like to present Ivan with this nice new shiny black plastic bag....

That's how it happens in the Premier League...
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
I'm a personal fan of Ivan Cleary's. Let me put that out there first, I admired him as a Warriors player, and was, along with most who posted at the forum at the time, thrilled that himself and Campo had come back to the Warriors.

My comment was that he needed to be given to at least round 12, if not the season to make a holistic judgement on his future at the club. The reason for that is, I just can't help but think the loss of a genuinely good hearted lad who was part of the soul and fabric of the club in such horrific circumstances was a massive part of what went wrong last year. Steve Price said as such on the Footy Show a few weeks ago that people could not have realised how massive an impact that had on the club. I also likened it to the Penrith Panthers when Ben Alexander lost his life in such horrible circumstances - the club's results derailed quick, and their two best players basically left the club to get away from it all (Brandy to the Warriors, MG to Balmain firstly). MG on MMM a few weeks ago talked about how it haunted him years later, to the point where a bloke made a distasteful comment in the crowd (not an NRL game), and he basically jumped the fence and chased the bloke out of the ground.

I amongst others was wrapped with the Brisbane demolition. However, the more I look at it the more I query where our points are coming from. I see the ability to offload, I see our centres and Manu are able to bust the line quite well (even though JRo is being smacked for his form, only Tate and the Beast beat him in line breaks thus far), but I don't see them getting ball where something has been created inside of them. It seems to me we rely too much on blokes running over someone or someone to pop an offload. In other words, its instinctive and lacks true structure.

I will step back and give him time to see what impact Seymour gives to the team. In truth, I would think Manu's re-emergence will be great for us, but I just want us to stop being so reliant on it. I'd love to see Manu, Tatey, Ropo get the ball with a bit of room, I'd absolutely... absolutely love to see Benny Matulino get the ball where his responsibility is not to run over a second rower, rather, he's got time and space and angles to play with. It's great that we have blokes like Ukuma Ta'ai, Tate, Ropo, the Beast who have great strength, but we also have crafty players like Hohaia, Matulino and Mannering who would look wicked running lines that take them into gaps rather than into someone's shoulder.

We'll finish 7-11th IMO. I don't think we can win the Grand Final, simply because we don't know how to take advantage of all our assets. To me, this is a clinical coaching issue. Like I say, I wish it wasn't, because I want to be a club that can build a young coach into a super coach, but I'm just not sure.
 

Edifier_old

Guest
Iafeta, I totally agree with your sentiments regarding Cleary.

Although, I wouldn't classify Mannering or Matulino as crafty. I sometimes wonder if Matulino could choose better lines when he's out wide.
 

romel_old

Guest
THANK GOD! can we get rid of this shit head and move on lol

i hope tony iro gets his job.
 

Swanley_old

Guest
Warriors always fall in the same trap.

We need an experianced coach, not a novice.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
Agreed, Swanley, and Cleary is the most experienced guy we have at the club so far, so there's no point dumping him for someone less experienced.

Funny how people want Iro to take on the job when Iro is already involved with coaching the same team and is therefore also partly responsible for our results...
 

PB_old

Guest
Agreed, Swanley, and Cleary is the most experienced guy we have at the club so far, so there's no point dumping him for someone less experienced.

Funny how people want Iro to take on the job when Iro is already involved with coaching the same team and is therefore also partly responsible for our results...

Seriously, I'd love an experienced coach that could attract and develop players but who is available that fits the bill apart from the unlikely-to-come Hasler, and a possibly homesick but NRL untested McLennan? Unless a big play gets made for Mr.Bennett or someone falls magically into our lap, which requires patience, holding on to Ivan is what we have. And that requires patience too.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
Seriously, I'd love an experienced coach that could attract and develop players but who is available that fits the bill apart from the unlikely-to-come Hasler, and a possibly homesick but NRL untested McLennan? Unless a big play gets made for Mr.Bennett or someone falls magically into our lap, which requires patience, holding on to Ivan is what we have. And that requires patience too.

Exactly. He's our best option, so we persevere.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
In terms of Dessy Hasler, much like the Warriors, Manly took a punt on him - he had no first grade experience and now look at him, he completely revitalised the culture of that club.

I'm hopeful by the end of the season that we'll have a more thorough evaluation of Cleary's effectiveness. In terms of who could reasonably come forward if not, to me it's either Brian McClennan or Stephen Kearney. Both would have good player associations from their time at super-clubs and internationally also. Their record of winning major international tournaments with underdog teams would count highly in terms of players evaluating the merits of playing under them also.

But we shouldn't brush off Cleary's qualifications to do that also. The guy has been involved with rugby league at the highest levels since the early-mid 90s. He was a point scoring machine. He was involved at successful Sydney clubs before coming here. Before coming here he had established an outstanding record in the lower grades for the Roosters. Look, I'm a very easy going bloke in terms of my judgements, and all I really ask is that we play constructive footy rather than instinctive footy. In truth, part of whether we know if that can happen with Ivan is going to come down to Brett Seymour's combination with James running more roughshod with the backs rather than organising. In other words, I look more at the driving indicators rather than the performance indicators themselves and to me, highly off the cuff footy isn't necessarily consistent in its nature and probably not driven enough to get you through a finals series. However, it can certainly be a great supplement to good tactical football. By that I guess personally I would love to see our back rowers and centres actually have space, rather than be asked to hit the line, hope to go through, and barring that throw a ball somewhere. I've noticed that the teams we have beaten have had slow defensive lines, and therefore we are less pressurised to play ball. The issue is the top teams do not give you that latitude. I would also for once love to see us come out riled up, with steam flying out of the ears, a fast moving defensive line with some big hits and a no nonsense approach. We don't seem to be fired up, which kind of seems relevant seeing as Ivan himself is a very cool, casual, cat. He's a hip-cat, lay da man? Who laid da man (sorry, couldn't help but throw in some 12th man material there).

Finally, I'd also like to say that IMO, Ivan Cleary has the capabilities of being an extremely good coach, much like Daniel Anderson. I hope that it proves to be here, but if worst comes to worst, IMO he's a guy who could go on and perform well elsewhere.
 

PB_old

Guest
Iafeta, I pretty much agree with all of that. I still think an experienced NRL coach would be best, but it is unlikely to happen. I merely hope that:
a) Cleary comes through.
b) If he doesn't we get someone who can attract players. (Kearney might)
c) If a & b bomb, we draw a line in the importing sand and get the best development coach we possibly can - whoever the hell that may be.

If McLennan came it would be great and make a wonderful story, but they don't always end happily ever after, do they? We get that a bit, don't we?
 

mrblonde_old

Guest
Absolutely agree, Iafeta!

I think we should stick with Cleary for several reasons:
A: Switching coaches midseason has, so far as I'm aware, never changed a club's fortunes for the better. Sometimes the club's fortunes remained as bad as they were going to be anyway - see Kemp replacing Anderson in 2004, Endacott replacing Monie in 1997 - and possibly in some instances the fortunes changed for the worse (bear in mind I'm talking NRL/ESL here). And feel free to point out some inconvenient situation that ruins my point :)
As I've mentioned in some other post lost in the mist of time, bear in mind that unlike, say the English Premier League and related European leagues ie The Scottish Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga, the NRL doesn't have a midseason window where, for example, the Broncos could decide that signing Denan Kemp was a bad idea and will offer him for transfer to the Warriors for Patrick Ah Van. Handicapping a new coach with a "you're halfway to being screwed and you've got no players you can get rid of or get in unless they're already free agents and you're not guaranteed a gig here for next season" scenario...well, I wouldn't take it under any circumstances.
B: He's not playing with a, roster-wise, full deck. Until he's got the best team he can possibly get - or as near to, so I think once he gets 4 out of Price/Seymour/Vatuvei/Mannering/Lillyman you can say he's at full strength - I think it's a bit unfair to dump him on the basis that Mr 3 Games Tupou and Mr 14 Games Maloney haven't set the world on fire.
C: As has been pointed out, who to replace him with, given point A?
The good coaches have already been taken except Murray, who's still looking for a job so far as I know and who I'd have if he was keen. Getting Kearney would appeal if he didn't want the Melbourne job or anywhere else. Some players - league, union, football, whatever - seem to me to only reach anywhere near their potential once they play in a town/club/country away from home (Joe Gaulavo comes to mind - didn't go anywhere at the Warriors but did once he went to Penrith) and I wonder if it's the same with coaches etc - pretty much a psychological thing...can't perform in the environment you grow up in due to friends who lead you down the wrong path, family pressures etc but once you're out of there, look out!
 
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Spence_old

Guest
I'm not saying get rid of Cleary. He is a person I have a lot of time for. It's just I want to see him improving. I know we have won many a game convincingly with him at the helm, but as Iafeta says, it's all instinctive football. I'm all for instinctive football, I love it. I just don't want it as our plan A. The way we are coached at the moment we are always going to have ups and downs all throughout the season. I'd love to see a more structured attack, but still play instinctively when the situation presents itself (rather than trying to score tries with merely individual brilliance and 50 offloads). Cleary is still young, hence he is still learning. I'd just like to see a bit of that learning transfer onto the field. More forwards running lines, better backline formation, faster play the balls, etc.
 

Cheops_old

Guest
Absolutely agree, Iafeta!

I think we should stick with Cleary for several reasons:
A: Switching coaches midseason has, so far as I'm aware, never changed a club's fortunes for the better. Sometimes the club's fortunes remained as bad as they were going to be anyway - see Kemp replacing Anderson in 2004, Endacott replacing Monie in 1997 - and possibly in some instances the fortunes changed for the worse (bear in mind I'm talking NRL/ESL here). And feel free to point out some inconvenient situation that ruins my point :)

Parramatta 2006 ;)
 

insulinboi_old

Guest
Well if we want an experienced coach...







Australian coach Mick Potter will leave Super League club St Helens at the end of the season.

Potter, who succeeded compatriot Daniel Anderson two years ago, is out of contract in October and wants to return to Australia's NRL.

"It's always been my intention to one day coach in the NRL and it's something I truly believe I am ready for," Potter said.

Potter was an assistant at St George Illawarra when he was chosen to take over from Englishman Steve Deakin just after the start of Catalans Dragons' inaugural season in Super League in 2006.

The 46-year-old took the Perpignan club to the Challenge Cup final at Wembley in 2007 and was named Super League coach of the year in 2008 before taking over at St Helens.

Saints chairman Eamon McManus said the club would begin a search for Potter's successor in the coming weeks.

"Mick has explained to us he has ambitions of possibly securing a place in the NRL and we wish him well in his endeavours," McManus said.

"He has been a great asset to our organisation and he will be successful wherever he goes."
 
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mrblonde_old

Guest
Parramatta 2006 ;)

Damnit, I didn't mean for someone to actually prove me wrong, I just implied you could. In a hypothetical sense.

A qualifying statement like "as far as I'm aware" is so cool because you're implying that you've researched the topic and if you're wrong it's because the information is hard to find.

And it sounds more scholarly than "I may be wrong but can't be arsed looking it up".
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
insulinboi, Potter has no head coach experience in the NRL. Tony Kemp was an ESL coach before an NRL coach.

polar bob, I believe the Warriors already did that with Cleary on option C. Not only was there strong reviews about his influence at the Roosters, he was developing a strong list of players. Some of those players couldn't make the jump successfully, others are still trying.
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
Absolutely agree, Iafeta!

I think we should stick with Cleary for several reasons:
A: Switching coaches midseason has, so far as I'm aware, never changed a club's fortunes for the better. Sometimes the club's fortunes remained as bad as they were going to be anyway - see Kemp replacing Anderson in 2004, Endacott replacing Monie in 1997 - and possibly in some instances the fortunes changed for the worse (bear in mind I'm talking NRL/ESL here). And feel free to point out some inconvenient situation that ruins my point :)
As I've mentioned in some other post lost in the mist of time, bear in mind that unlike, say the English Premier League and related European leagues ie The Scottish Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga, the NRL doesn't have a midseason window where, for example, the Broncos could decide that signing Denan Kemp was a bad idea and will offer him for transfer to the Warriors for Patrick Ah Van. Handicapping a new coach with a "you're halfway to being screwed and you've got no players you can get rid of or get in unless they're already free agents and you're not guaranteed a gig here for next season" scenario...well, I wouldn't take it under any circumstances.
B: He's not playing with a, roster-wise, full deck. Until he's got the best team he can possibly get - or as near to, so I think once he gets 4 out of Price/Seymour/Vatuvei/Mannering/Lillyman you can say he's at full strength - I think it's a bit unfair to dump him on the basis that Mr 3 Games Tupou and Mr 14 Games Maloney haven't set the world on fire.
C: As has been pointed out, who to replace him with, given point A?
The good coaches have already been taken except Murray, who's still looking for a job so far as I know and who I'd have if he was keen. Getting Kearney would appeal if he didn't want the Melbourne job or anywhere else. Some players - league, union, football, whatever - seem to me to only reach anywhere near their potential once they play in a town/club/country away from home (Joe Gaulavo comes to mind - didn't go anywhere at the Warriors but did once he went to Penrith) and I wonder if it's the same with coaches etc - pretty much a psychological thing...can't perform in the environment you grow up in due to friends who lead you down the wrong path, family pressures etc but once you're out of there, look out!

What about the Paramatta Eels in 2006 or 2007, they were useless under Brian Smith for a couple of seasons prior to his mid season dumping, then he got replaced with his assistant Jason Taylor - then all of a sudden they started winning games and got into the finals. New team selections for example Jarrod Hayne, Smith didnt want to pick the young kid on the wing, then as soon as Taylor became coach he picked him for every game and was a revelation, try scoring freak in his first year, I guess all thanks to a new coach.

The Warriors could do with a change, there might be some improvement from last year, but not progressing fast enough, its time for a change, it will be good for the players and the club in general. A fresh new start is whats needed, the players arent responding and they look stale and average, a new coach I feel will change that, it will benifit the young guys in the team, they will grow and develope more under a new coach with fresh ideas, new environment, new tactics, it will be a good change for the exprience guys too who will find a new lease of life.

Theres good arguments for and against the dumping of Ivan, I feel if we stick with Ivan we will be heading in the same direction as we are now, average results. This club can do a lot better than that.
 

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