General Ivan Cleary Newsflash

insulinboi_old

Guest
On Witt, He scored 2 tries, kicked three goals and a field goal to destroy Bradford 19-0.

With a decent number 7 working with him, he could do anything.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
We haven't missed Michael Witt at all? Are you kidding? Kicking at around 85% aside, comes back from injury in 08 and adds much needed direction to a directionless outfit (aint that what we're seeing now?). Goes to the Crusaders, an outfit that looked well and truely out of it's depth in the ESL and barely managed a point in 09. 2010 rolls around and the Crusaders are knocking on the door of the play offs and from what i have seen of them he is directing them around the park.

The ESL is a far different grade of competition. Maloney is kicking at this percentage, and Seymour is also a top goal kicker. Goal kicking is far from the problem.

Seymour will add a lot more organisation than Witt. We are definitely seeing a directionless team right now as Maloney is being thrust into a role he is not ready for. Maloney is a far better runner of the football than Witt and a better general play kicker than Witt.
 

Northern_Union

Guest
The ESL is a far different grade of competition. Maloney is kicking at this percentage, and Seymour is also a top goal kicker. Goal kicking is far from the problem.

Seymour will add a lot more organisation than Witt. We are definitely seeing a directionless team right now as Maloney is being thrust into a role he is not ready for. Maloney is a far better runner of the football than Witt and a better general play kicker than Witt.[/QUOTE

As i said kicking aside. How do you know Seymour will add alot more organisation than Witt? Also you say Maloney is a better general play kicker than Witt. With all due respect i completely and utterly disagree with the bulk of your post. Witt proved what direction he adds when he came back from injury and started directing the side around the park. .This was also the start of the last season push. He is also proving this again with a very limited team in the Crusaders. Have we seen a Warriors side with good direction since then? In two seasons no is the correct answer.
If your going to assert a totally unfounded 'fact' that Maloney is a better ball runner and kicker in general play then i'm going to assert a 'fact' that Witt is a better ball distributor and puts players into space better than Maloney and Witt is a far better defensive halve than Maloney.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
The ESL is a far different grade of competition. Maloney is kicking at this percentage, and Seymour is also a top goal kicker. Goal kicking is far from the problem.

Seymour will add a lot more organisation than Witt. We are definitely seeing a directionless team right now as Maloney is being thrust into a role he is not ready for. Maloney is a far better runner of the football than Witt and a better general play kicker than Witt.

As i said kicking aside. How do you know Seymour will add alot more organisation than Witt? Also you say Maloney is a better general play kicker than Witt. With all due respect i completely and utterly disagree with the bulk of your post. Witt proved what direction he adds when he came back from injury and started directing the side around the park. .This was also the start of the last season push. He is also proving this again with a very limited team in the Crusaders. Have we seen a Warriors side with good direction since then? In two seasons no is the correct answer.
If your going to assert a totally unfounded 'fact' that Maloney is a better ball runner and kicker in general play then i'm going to assert a 'fact' that Witt is a better ball distributor and puts players into space better than Maloney and Witt is a far better defensive halve than Maloney.

By watching Brett's career with Cronulla and contrasting it with Michael's career. Witt's most prominent moment in rugby league were when he first hit first grade. He was an exceptional lower grader, and had a phenomenal world sevens competition for the Eels. When he came into first grade he was a dynamic ball runner. His best skill was just that; using his speed and stepping skill. However, when team's started to hone in on him, he was quickly shunted out of the Eels first grade team as once they had shut him down, the rest of the team around him didn't have any direction to add to what Witt was individualistically able to bring to the table.

I would add his best moments at the Warriors were his goal kicking, and a couple of displays where he chipped over the line for himself.

On your comment about Witt's ball playing ability, these are his line break assists numbers. They aren't exactly glowing. 2003, 3 line break assists from 17 games; 2004, 3 line break assists from 10 games; 2005, 2 line break assists in 19 games; 2006, only the 1 game, 0 line break assists. 2007, 11 line break assists from 25 games; 2008 4 line break assists from 18 games. Line break assists to game ratio, 23 LBA's, 90 games, .26 line break assists a game.

I will contrast this with a willing but perhaps slightly incompetent half in Grant Rovelli. I am using him as he played in a similar era at the Warriors. 2006, 24 games, 10 line break assists. 2007, 6 line break assists, 23 games. 2008, 8 LBAs, 21 games; 2009, 3 LBAs from 13 games; 2010, 2 LBAs from 3 games. Line break assists to game ratio, 29 LBAs from 84 games, .34 line break assists per game.

Stats can't tell you everything and 74.85% will tell you tells you nothing, but they do draw some kind of line in the sand. Michael was a fair player, but not one I think we miss greatly.

To give a brief indication over the past 5 years of a variable standard of the top echelon of halves;

Marshall: .84
Prince: .68
Kimmorley: .46
Thurston: .96
Lockyer: .81

Rovelli: .34
Witt: .26

I'm sure you will discard this as a nonsense stat, and indeed in many ways it is as perhaps Witt was the man who created space for someone else to put someone through a gap... over 5 seasons though in contrast, and particularly since as a five eighth he's dealing with the edges more than the build up forward play like a halfback should be, it should all even itself out against the others he's compared to.

I won't argue about the defensive half aspect of it. My opinion on James' defence have been stated. He gets caught square too often, and allows players to beat him inside and outside too often.
 

Northern_Union

Guest
By watching Brett's career with Cronulla and contrasting it with Michael's career. Witt's most prominent moment in rugby league were when he first hit first grade. He was an exceptional lower grader, and had a phenomenal world sevens competition for the Eels. When he came into first grade he was a dynamic ball runner. His best skill was just that; using his speed and stepping skill. However, when team's started to hone in on him, he was quickly shunted out of the Eels first grade team as once they had shut him down, the rest of the team around him didn't have any direction to add to what Witt was individualistically able to bring to the table.

I would add his best moments at the Warriors were his goal kicking, and a couple of displays where he chipped over the line for himself.

On your comment about Witt's ball playing ability, these are his line break assists numbers. They aren't exactly glowing. 2003, 3 line break assists from 17 games; 2004, 3 line break assists from 10 games; 2005, 2 line break assists in 19 games; 2006, only the 1 game, 0 line break assists. 2007, 11 line break assists from 25 games; 2008 4 line break assists from 18 games. Line break assists to game ratio, 23 LBA's, 90 games, .26 line break assists a game.

I will contrast this with a willing but perhaps slightly incompetent half in Grant Rovelli. I am using him as he played in a similar era at the Warriors. 2006, 24 games, 10 line break assists. 2007, 6 line break assists, 23 games. 2008, 8 LBAs, 21 games; 2009, 3 LBAs from 13 games; 2010, 2 LBAs from 3 games. Line break assists to game ratio, 29 LBAs from 84 games, .34 line break assists per game.

Stats can't tell you everything and 74.85% will tell you tells you nothing, but they do draw some kind of line in the sand. Michael was a fair player, but not one I think we miss greatly.

To give a brief indication over the past 5 years of a variable standard of the top echelon of halves;

Marshall: .84
Prince: .68
Kimmorley: .46
Thurston: .96
Lockyer: .81

Rovelli: .34
Witt: .26

I'm sure you will discard this as a nonsense stat, and indeed in many ways it is as perhaps Witt was the man who created space for someone else to put someone through a gap... over 5 seasons though in contrast, and particularly since as a five eighth he's dealing with the edges more than the build up forward play like a halfback should be, it should all even itself out against the others he's compared to.

I won't argue about the defensive half aspect of it. My opinion on James' defence have been stated. He gets caught square too often, and allows players to beat him inside and outside too often.

I'm glad you and i see eye to eye on stats. Stats are a none sence. They can't equate that which they can't put a number on. Like a player yelling at a team mate to run at someone cause they look buggered and when the team mate scores the player offering direction doesn't show on the stats. Or Mark Geyer running along the touch line and telling the opposion bench he is going to kill them when they get on, the bench players then come up with unforced errors because they have one eye on Geyer after being scared shitless....again, Geyer won't appear on the stats. Or a player runs for 100 metres from 6 carries....WOW we all say look at those stats, but wont they wont tell you is that at the end of those runs he was passing to a player in a worse position than himself and the reciever got hammered each time and lost the ball. Again that wont show on Mr 100 metres stats. I get a little tired of reading stats....they seem to have become the go to position for some, fair enough if your happy with that but i think they flatter to decieve in a great number of cases. Steve Martin at Norths was the last NRL coach that i know of that operated off stats.

You say you compare Witts career to that of Seymours when trying to compare who gave a side better direction. Thats conjecture on your part or at the very least a selective memory. I can play that game as well and say i compare Witts career to Seymour's and Witt is clearly the better player at giving a team direction. And apart from that, you must have a fantastic memory to compare to players like that just on what you remember because again direction is another one of those factors that stats can't quantify.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
All NRL coaches use stats to some degree. Most professional sports coaches use stats. Take cricket, they employ at a professional level people whose sole responsibility is to measure performance and come up with probabilities for game plan scenarios. No coach or reasonable person will ever rely purely on stats, but they are conditioned to interpret them and make use of them. To dismiss stats as a credible theorem is similar to dismissing economics or marketing as academic components of business measurement.

While you can tire of reading stats, they do give an indicative read of situations and are academically reasonable to use. A lot of people will discard the theory of stats, but it is a very easy way to compare, whether you compare by mean, median, mode or you take out outlying scenarios. The problem with stats is to equate it over a period of time to drive out the effect of outliers on the mean. You have discredited, as is your right to do so, my qualitative assessment of organisation, no dramas, but then on the other hand you have tried to discredit the quantitative realm of statistics. Which one gives you the answer? The truth is in most cases a part of each. You have also said that one of your discreditations is if a bloke runs 100m from 6 carries and passes to a bloke who gets smashed and drops the ball and the impact. This is very, very, very true and relies on an analysts intuition to measure its effectiveness. I would though suggest that the guys Witt has been compared to to assess his ball playing ability (the other halves) are not guys who are prone to doing that, and if they are, certainly no worse off than Witt.

Witt was a decent player, and I don't mean to discredit him at all as I was someone who celebrated him coming to the club. To the statement are we missing him, in my opinion we are not. The problems with the Warriors run far deeper than whether Michael Witt is at the Warriors or not.
 

TINCITY WARRIOR_old

Guest
A Sunday paper has breathlessly - as breathlessly as you can on paper - reported that Ivan Cleary will be sacked at the end of the year of the Warriors fail to make the finals.

Gee, there's a newsflash....not!!

Yep he needs to go alright so many times i see our boys down in the opposition 20 and wasted opportunity no direction leadership and no set plays so annoying and if they do have a play its easily read by the other team or the boys dont have there spacing right and makes the play look like slow motion acccident waiting to happen!!! What about Steve Folkes hes got some role at the west tigers hes got experince and has won a premeirship!!
 

casso_old

Guest
Alas poor Ivan he will have to go.

I like Ivan,he is a terrific bloke,and he is one aussie who u can't deny has put his heart and soul into the Warriors both as a player and a coach.But this is a professional game and Ivan has not got results,he needs to move on.
I think Graeme Murray is looking for a job and has had success elsewhere,in the short term,he would certainly clear out some of the dead wood and give some of the boys a hurry up[wake up]
 

teariki_old

Guest
The only stat that counts is: how many games did the Warriors win when Witt was playing?
 

Spence_old

Guest
Well that isn't the only stat that counts, does it. Have a team of 10 year olds in the NRL with Thurston at 7. How many games would they win with Thurston at halfback?
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
Interesting that this is only coming to a head after three consecutive losses, (and they were bad ones), when we have more than 600 NRL matches of experience sitting on the sidelines. Why not at the beginning of the season before the first kick off? Because "wait and see" is clearly not the tack that is being taken here.

(I know that Cleary has had his critics, but nothing like this so far in 2010 until all of a sudden he needs to be sacked...without actually taking the whole situation into context. Knee jerk?)
 

Northern_Union

Guest
You remind me of one of those jack russel dogs, they have no idea that they arn't bull mastives but that doesn't stop them from acting like bull mastives. ;)
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
The only stat that counts is: how many games did the Warriors win when Witt was playing?

That record wouldn't be altogether that bad. I'd suggest it'd be ok for Rovelli too. However, it's more the ability to shape a big time game that drives success towards a premiership. I think even our current squad assembly is one of a core group who can win games, but not necessarily do it with such effectiveness that gives you confidence in September/October.
 

Last Game

27 Aug

16 - 28
5.6 Total Avg Rating
0.0 Your Avg Rating

Highest Rated Player

Lowest Rated Player

Compiled from 5 ratings