General Is this the twilight of democracy?

bruce

Warriors 1st Grader
Contributor
Sep 1, 2015
20,403
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I have been told this is a good read.

It doesn't relate directly to Donald Trump so I am going away from that thread.

Democracy as a theory has been rubbished by philosophers such as Socrates, who said it was government by mediocrity, and Alexander Solzhenitzyn who said the best form of government is a benevolent dictator.

Many facist types see democracy as an inferior form of government to authoritarianism. Hence we have the most popular cable anchor in the USA travelling to Hungary to heap praise on a corrupt authoritarian grifter as an example for the USA.

Sir Alec Issigonis, designer of the original Mini in 1959, famously said, “a camel is a horse designed by committee.” As much as I detested Eric Watson, if the club was run by a members group it would probably have been just as bad.

Just look at how inefficient elected local bodies are compared with well run private companies.

However, the reason the founding fathers promoted democracy was not so much as to find the best government, but to be able to get rid of a bad one. Power corrupts, so they all turn bad eventually.

When Benjamin Franklin was asked after a session of the Constitutional Convention, ""What kind of a government have you given us? "" he replied,
""A democracy, if you can keep it.
 
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Gizzyfan

Warriors 1st Grader
Jan 2, 2013
5,583
The way I see it is that democracy is the best, as long as all the people are represented. We have the tug of war with Capitalism and Socialism. Corporations wield a lot of lobbying power in most Western developed countries. Lobby groups that try to capitalise on the State. Leaving the ordinary citizen excluded.

I do not see Socialism as the answer as taking control of the means of production removes innovation, we saw what happened with collectivisation in The Soviet Union, major famine.

My view is that free enterprise with some Socialistic Policies has worked before and can work again. China probably does it best where Capitalism is encouraged, but not allowed to take over.
 

bruce

Warriors 1st Grader
Contributor
Sep 1, 2015
20,403
I do not see Socialism as the answer as taking control of the means of production removes innovation, we saw what happened with collectivisation in The Soviet Union, major famine.
Socialism is a theory that became authoritarianism, because it doesn't work. People will not work if they can sit on their bum and not get paid.
Capitalism is a new theory, and in its pure form doesn't work either.
 

wizards rage

Warriors 1st Grader
Apr 18, 2016
5,130
Tauranga
Democracy as a theory has been rubbished by philosophers such as Socrates, who said it was government by mediocrity, and Alexander Solzhenitzyn who said the best form of government is a benevolent dictator.
The government that can get the best result is definately a dictator. The problem is, like with companies, for every one that over performs and becomes an Xero, you get a pile that go bankrupt. And that is the problem. You can’t take a risk with a country where the odds are actually in favour of overall of underperforming.

A democracy is average, middle of the road and SAFE. Change moves slowly and steady but the chances of making errors is low. Fringe ideas struggle for traction and can be reversed next election, which is both a good and bad thing.
Socialism is a theory that became authoritarianism, because it doesn't work. People will not work if they can sit on their bum and not get paid.
Capitalism is a new theory, and in its pure form doesn't work either.
Capitalism is as near to nature for an economy as you can get. It simply puts a price on everything to enable efficient allocation of resources in a constant price war. It is survival of the fittest and it is no surprise that the most capitalist county, America, has produced the most innovation and advances to society. The US also exposes the negatives where like nature, the powerful dominate the weak. Poverty and the wealth gap are natural outcomes of the system.

Most countries, including NZ have a good mix with a capitalist economy and a social safety net. We recognise we are not wild animals and ‘raise the lowest level’ we accept for our vulnerable people.

My belief is the system can be tweaked and has areas where it doesn’t work (monopolies) but overall you can’t beat a system that allows the best businesses to Thrive and the hopeless to fail.
 

the borg

1st Grade Fringe
Jun 8, 2015
693
To quote Reinhold Nieduhr "The sad duty of politics is to establish justice in a sinful world"

Pretty much sums it up really, justice can be applied to almost anything, no matter which political ideology man comes up with, corruption will eventually infiltrate the system, resulting in winners and losers. Usually very few winners and a lot of losers.
So whether democracy is on its way out, or not. The real question is which political ideology can establish some sort of justice for the benefit of all people. Cause the choices we thought were good for all, have turned out to benefit only a few..
 

Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
23,438
Trumps attempted millitary coup, and revolutionary coup using domestic terrorism signals the beginning of the end of democracy for them.

He crossed the Rubicon. Now you have a line up of GOP Neo Fascists emboldened to suppress voters, program the masses with a cultist bombardment of lies, and set American vs American.

Fascism is on the rise globally. But the Trumps America made it ok...a normal operation.

Freedom is overrated.

Especially free speech. I do not believe there is any argument for allowing hate speech.

It does not enhance the freedoms of the user or the targets of its use.

I am really glad Governments are moving away from tolerating hate speech...
Your right to harm others with your antisocial unhelpful....meaningless...right to abuse others.
 
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wizards rage

Warriors 1st Grader
Apr 18, 2016
5,130
Tauranga
Freedom is overrated.

Especially free speech. I do not believe there is any argument for allowing hate speech.

It does not enhance the freedoms of the user or the targets of its use.

I am really glad Governments are moving away from tolerating hate speech...
Your right to harm others with your antisocial unhelpful....meaningless...right to abuse others.
Dangerous stuff here. Dictators are enabled because they get to decide what’s hate speech. It can be used to suppress and control.

Even our government, which is trying to bring hate laws in can’t give a clear signal of what is allowed and what isn’t. It’s dud law if it’s so open to interpretation.
 

Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
23,438
Dangerous stuff here. Dictators are enabled because they get to decide what’s hate speech. It can be used to suppress and control.

Even our government, which is trying to bring hate laws in can’t give a clear signal of what is allowed and what isn’t. It’s dud law if it’s so open to interpretation.
Not really.

I cannot go into a Church and yell F the priest he is a pedo.

People are precious about their rights to be bigoted.

Voltaire and all that bollocks.

Banning hate speech has nothing to do with dictators banning free ideas. That has always been the straw man argument to allow tolerance of things that serve us no purpose other than to feed hate.
 

Mr Dragon

1st Grade Fringe
Jul 25, 2015
1,623
I am really glad Governments are moving away from tolerating hate speech...
Your right to harm others with your antisocial unhelpful....meaningless...right to abuse others.
Says the guy whos all for positive discrimination 🤣
 
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wizards rage

Warriors 1st Grader
Apr 18, 2016
5,130
Tauranga
Not really.

I cannot go into a Church and yell F the priest he is a pedo.

People are precious about their rights to be bigoted.
But the protestor may stand outside the church on public land and say the very same thing and I would support their right to, even if I didn’t agree.
 
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Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
23,438
I understand.

I too believed in free speech at all costs American Anglo hysteria.

I am pragmatic now. If it does not help, if it is morally or socially unacceotable, say it in your bedroom.

BTW guys, excuse the overtly contrary view to the generally accepted norms.

I do not disagree with the importance of free speech.

I accept that the only safety mechanism we seem to understand in guarding the freedom of speech...is by unilaterally protecting all forms of speech.

A take the good with the bad approach, to ensure we are never deprived of the good.

I am not advocating for some one world order dystopian dictatorship.

Merely using my free speech to challenge the ready acceptance that all speech is allowed....

At the core of what I am saying....is that losing hate speech, is not a loss of freedom....there are costs that come from allowing hate speech to proliferate....you know the horrible cliché....Freedom is not free.
 

Mr Dragon

1st Grade Fringe
Jul 25, 2015
1,623
BTW guys, excuse the overtly contrary view to the generally accepted norms.

I do not disagree with the importance of free speech.

I accept that the only safety mechanism we seem to understand in guarding the freedom of speech...is by unilaterally protecting all forms of speech.

A take the good with the bad approach, to ensure we are never deprived of the good.

I am not advocating for some one world order dystopian dictatorship.

Merely using my free speech to challenge the ready acceptance that all speech is allowed....

At the core of what I am saying....is that losing hate speech, is not a loss of freedom....there are costs that come from allowing hate speech to proliferate....you know the horrible cliché....Freedom is not free.
So if you say "i wish Trump was dead", that is hate speech 🤣
I wonder if Bruce knows 🤣
 

wizards rage

Warriors 1st Grader
Apr 18, 2016
5,130
Tauranga
BTW guys, excuse the overtly contrary view to the generally accepted norms.
Ironically, taking a contrary view to the norm may fall on the wrong side of hate speech in some circumstances.

But I respect the right to say it. I actually believe contrary views, that we don’t like sometimes actually helps the debate and gets better outcomes. We learn more from seeing both sides.

We should all keep up an independent view, keep an open mind and be respectful. I try to myself and the different views is actually what I enjoy on this site.
 

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