General Fullback 2014: Is Tomkins Worth It?

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Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

Warriors 1st Grader
Apr 30, 2012
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According to this, the Tomkins deal is done and its just the transfer fee that is being negotiated;

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/8820898/Warriors-chasing-English-prospect-reports

The New Zealand Warriors want to sign Englishman Jordan Baldwinson, even though he has only played one Super League game, British newspapers The Sun and Yorkshire Evening Post report.

Baldwinson, 19, is the captain of the English academy side and is regarded as one of the highest rated prospects in the English game.
He made his debut from the bench in Leeds' 32-28 win over Widnes last weekend.
The Sun reported that Baldwinson's talent was spotted by Warriors general manager of football operations, Dean Bell, on his recent trip to Britain.
Baldwinson, who plays prop or in the second row has been compared to a young Adrian Morley.
The Yorkshire Evening Post reported that the Warriors are interested in other young Leeds players as well.
Last week Sunday News reported that the Warriors have signed a young prop from Auckland for next season, with speculation it is Glenn Riley from Warrington.
Negotiations to bring Sam Tomkins to Auckland are continuing.
It is believed an agreement has been reached between the Warriors and Tomkins, but there are still issues about how Wigan will be compensated for him leaving them while he still has two more years left on his contract.
Meanwhile, the Dragons have signed pivot Harry Siejka for the rest of the 2013 season as a potential replacement for Jamie Soward, who was released by the NRL club this week.
Siejka, who recently left the Warriors after an unhappy time in Auckland where he failed to crack the NRL, will begin training immediately with NSW Cup side the Illawarra Cutters and is contracted until the end of October.
The 21-year-old made his NRL debut in 2011 in the halves for Penrith, playing four first-grade matches.
"I'm really excited by the opportunity to play for the Dragons as they're a club with a rich and proud history," Siejka said in a statement.
"I'm very thankful to be a part of the club and look forward to getting stuck into training alongside my new team-mates."
The signing comes just three days after Soward was granted an immediate release by the Dragons to join English Super League strugglers the London Broncos.
He will join Penrith next year on a four-year deal.
 

Buck777

Guest
The New Zealand Warriors want to sign Englishman Jordan Baldwinson, even though he has only played one Super League game, British newspapers The Sun and Yorkshire Evening Post report. [/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

Baldwinson, 19, is the captain of the English academy side and is regarded as one of the highest rated prospects in the English game.
He made his debut from the bench in Leeds' 32-28 win over Widnes last weekend.
The Sun reported that Baldwinson's talent was spotted by Warriors general manager of football operations, Dean Bell, on his recent trip to Britain.
Baldwinson, who plays prop or in the second row has been compared to a young Adrian Morley.
The Yorkshire Evening Post reported that the Warriors are interested in other young Leeds players as well.
Last week Sunday News reported that the Warriors have signed a young prop from Auckland for next season, with speculation it is Glenn Riley from Warrington.

The one thing we do have, in abundance, is young 19/20 year olds with talent. I can understand buying Tomkins who is proven, but my reaction to us buying young ESL players is why? unless there is going to be a minor clean out of the current team.Maybe we're getting them cheap.
 
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surfin

Warriors 1st Grader
May 9, 2012
6,000
Coromandel
Ok, but how many players like Locke, Fish or Laumpae are willing to just sit around waiting for injuries. All of those guys are good enough to start in an NRL team and will want to play, meaning that they will be lost to other teams if there is a lot of 'depth' ie. obstacles to first grade jumpers.
I just don't feel Tomkins will make enough of a difference to justify the money. He is good, but not that much better than Locke or Fish that we would end up losing them for a guy on a 2yr deal.

Been away for a week so I don't know if someone has pointed this out but Fish has played 15 first grade games since his debut 3 years ago, kept out by both injury and form. As for would they be willing to wait around for an injury, Tomkins is one player so he won't be keeping 3 players out of the squad and that simply puts pressure on players to perform. I can not see the thinking behind having no depth so your "good players" know they will be picked no matter what. No player is irreplaceable, Rubes, Langer and Andrew Johns retired, their teams didn't fold. K.Hunt, Folau, Tahu, Tuquri and SBW changed code and their teams didn't fold, while losing a class player is never good, not buying a class player because someone may leave can't be good either. Plus a lot of your point depends on your belief of what a player might do, something neither you or they player themselves can know till that situation arrives.
 

Danpatmac

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Been away for a week so I don't know if someone has pointed this out but Fish has played 15 first grade games since his debut 3 years ago, kept out by both injury and form. As for would they be willing to wait around for an injury, Tomkins is one player so he won't be keeping 3 players out of the squad and that simply puts pressure on players to perform. I can not see the thinking behind having no depth so your "good players" know they will be picked no matter what. No player is irreplaceable, Rubes, Langer and Andrew Johns retired, their teams didn't fold. K.Hunt, Folau, Tahu, Tuquri and SBW changed code and their teams didn't fold, while losing a class player is never good, not buying a class player because someone may leave can't be good either. Plus a lot of your point depends on your belief of what a player might do, something neither you or they player themselves can know till that situation arrives.

I am not an advocate of having no depth. But I am a in favour of having some promising young guys in your reserve grade system and some veterans in case of injuries to your top players.
These players are neither of those, they are better than that and deserve to be playing first grade. If we don't give them that opportunity then someone else will. The bottom line is that we don't need another fullback, we need a decent prop and a quality half.
 
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surfin

Warriors 1st Grader
May 9, 2012
6,000
Coromandel
I am not an advocate of having no depth. But I am a in favour of having some promising young guys in your reserve grade system and some veterans in case of injuries to your top players.
These players are neither of those, they are better than that and deserve to be playing first grade. If we don't give them that opportunity then someone else will. The bottom line is that we don't need another fullback, we need a decent prop and a quality half.

There are 16 first grade teams that can only field 17 players each week, they all having promising young guys and veterans in their system, every club loses players that go on to better things at other clubs, just like they keep promising young players that for one reason or another never reach their potential. Again your point doesn't seem to take into account the other teams also have their own young stars they are trying to keep. Did you care when Isaac John left, his potential was always there but it took a stint in the ESL to finally unlock it. Would you have been happier if they had let someone else go and kept Johns, now that 5 or so years down the track he has become a first grader.
 
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Danpatmac

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There are 16 first grade teams that can only field 17 players each week, they all having promising young guys and veterans in their system, every club loses players that go on to better things at other clubs, just like they keep promising young players that for one reason or another never reach their potential. Again your point doesn't seem to take into account the other teams also have their own young stars they are trying to keep. Did you care when Isaac John left, his potential was always there but it took a stint in the ESL to finally unlock it. Would you have been happier if they had let someone else go and kept Johns, now that 5 or so years down the track he has become a first grader.

And I am questioning why we are bringing in players to take up those positions when it is my opinion that those positions are being well served already. we will only lose those young stars to other clubs if we keep bringing in guys from outside unecessarily in positions were we don't need help.
We don't need 3 first graders in every position, we need a better development system that teaches our young players how to actually tackle and play with structure and a few decent veterans. Fish, Locke and Laumape are all significantly better players right now than Isaac John was when he left.
Very few clubs have players of the quality of those 3 playing in NSW cup. The point you are missing here is that these players are ready now.
i liked Isaac john and thought he had made a good start to his career and we ended up bringing in Seymour who was mud.

I think Locke and Fish between them make us deeper than the so many clubs at that position right now. I'm just not sure why we want to sign another fullback.
If he is coming here to play 6 then that makes more sense to me... except for the fact that i think he will be a defensive turnstile and all indications are that he will be a fullback. I think Locke and Fish are about to really begin reaping big rewards and I don't like that we are going to muck around with that.
 

surfin

Warriors 1st Grader
May 9, 2012
6,000
Coromandel
And I am questioning why we are bringing in players to take up those positions when it is my opinion that those positions are being well served already. we will only lose those young stars to other clubs if we keep bringing in guys from outside unecessarily in positions were we don't need help.
We don't need 3 first graders in every position, we need a better development system that teaches our young players how to actually tackle and play with structure and a few decent veterans. Fish, Locke and Laumape are all significantly better players right now than Isaac John was when he left.
Very few clubs have players of the quality of those 3 playing in NSW cup. The point you are missing here is that these players are ready now.
i liked Isaac john and thought he had made a good start to his career and we ended up bringing in Seymour who was mud.

I think Locke and Fish between them make us deeper than the so many clubs at that position right now. I'm just not sure why we want to sign another fullback.
If he is coming here to play 6 then that makes more sense to me... except for the fact that i think he will be a defensive turnstile and all indications are that he will be a fullback. I think Locke and Fish are about to really begin reaping big rewards and I don't like that we are going to muck around with that.



Well served providing there are no injuries or suspensions etc. Trying to win a premiership with a team made up of promising youngsters with a few veterans to show them the way isn't going to happen. I'm comfortable with players going off shore to learn their trade under different coaches and team structures as it must be good for League in NZ and again your assuming players only leave the Warriors because their path to first grade is blocked by someone else. Did it occur to you that some of these guys go because they might want to live in and see somewhere else in the world. The biggest problem I see with your stand is you deciding why players leave the club based on your opinion, when in reality not getting picked for first grade is only one of many possible reasons. How about more money, personality clashes, the belief going to a coach like Bennett will help their own game, or family links, eg Toki Likiliki. Maybe like 1000's of other Kiwis they just want to go where the weathers better. There is only a very small number of players in the NRL that get picked automatically and none of them are a promising youngster. Like most things in life you need to prove your worth.
 
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Danpatmac

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Well served providing there are no injuries or suspensions etc. Trying to win a premiership with a team made up of promising youngsters with a few veterans to show them the way isn't going to happen. I'm comfortable with players going off shore to learn their trade under different coaches and team structures as it must be good for League in NZ and again your assuming players only leave the Warriors because their path to first grade is blocked by someone else. Did it occur to you that some of these guys go because they might want to live in and see somewhere else in the world. The biggest problem I see with your stand is you deciding why players leave the club based on your opinion, when in reality not getting picked for first grade is only one of many possible reasons. How about more money, personality clashes, the belief going to a coach like Bennett will help their own game, or family links, eg Toki Likiliki. Maybe like 1000's of other Kiwis they just want to go where the weathers better. There is only a very small number of players in the NRL that get picked automatically and none of them are a promising youngster. Like most things in life you need to prove your worth.


If we lose first and second choice players to injury or suspension then chances are we are gonna struggle anyway.

I'm not discounting any of the reasons that you have suggested may motivate players to leave.
i'm saying that we don't need to add motivation to leave unecessarily.
 
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Inruin

Warriors 1st Grader
Contributor
May 19, 2012
10,233
Auckland
Up until the last few games most didnt rate Fish as a Fullback and we had an injury prone Locke. (We also had a problem with not having capable wingers.) So, while we can sit here now and say we potentially have two very good fullbacks, a few weeks ago it could be argued we had few options, especailly given last season as well. I cant fault the club for looking for a player like Tomkins or any other player that will cause competition for spots. Not signing a player because it may add to the motivation of other players to leave is really no argument at all is it? Wanting to leave because someone else has taken your spot? 'Don't get bitter, get better'
 

surfin

Warriors 1st Grader
May 9, 2012
6,000
Coromandel
If we lose first and second choice players to injury or suspension then chances are we are gonna struggle anyway.

I'm not discounting any of the reasons that you have suggested may motivate players to leave.
i'm saying that we don't need to add motivation to leave unecessarily.



That's where we differ then, because if a player doesn't want to leave I would call it motivation to stay and improve their own performance. Although I realise this is an extreme example there is no reason why 3 very good FBs can't play in the same team ala Queensland with Slater,Inglis and Boyd, if it best suits the team. Even going back to your original argument where you named Locke, Fish and Laumape, even without Tomkins on the scene there is still only one fullback position, so with your thinking there is a chance 2 of them are going to leave anyway.
 

Tim burgess

1st Grade Fringe
May 20, 2012
1,383
I think signing of Tompkins is a risk on 2 fronts.

1) he may struggle with demands of Nrl and moving away from uk. Living in Aussies and nz is not for everybody. And one of the signings from ESL is due to struggle.
2) could his arrival impact team morale, or force players away from the club. Let's be clear this guy will not player for the vulcans
3) his salary could be significant part of the salary cap, which could ultimately stretch any dept or retention of young players.

agree, fullback is not a problem area, centre, hooker, prop/second row is where we Need quality signing.

It stinks of desperation and use of dean bell contacts, were I'm sure tompkins is potentially going to be vastly overpaid. James Roby would be better signing
 
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Danpatmac

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That's where we differ then, because if a player doesn't want to leave I would call it motivation to stay and improve their own performance. Although I realise this is an extreme example there is no reason why 3 very good FBs can't play in the same team ala Queensland with Slater,Inglis and Boyd, if it best suits the team. Even going back to your original argument where you named Locke, Fish and Laumape, even without Tomkins on the scene there is still only one fullback position, so with your thinking there is a chance 2 of them are going to leave anyway.


No, not necessarily.

I think if you have 2 quality players in each position you can afford to have a young fella or older veteran as the 3rd choice (if you ever need that player). it allows you to spread your resources across all positions.
I feel we have the mix right with our outside backs right now and we don't need anyone else.
We have enough wing/centre and fb cover.
 

surfin

Warriors 1st Grader
May 9, 2012
6,000
Coromandel
No, not necessarily.

I think if you have 2 quality players in each position you can afford to have a young fella or older veteran as the 3rd choice (if you ever need that player). it allows you to spread your resources across all positions.
I feel we have the mix right with our outside backs right now and we don't need anyone else.
We have enough wing/centre and fb cover.



Ok we're obviously thinking in very different directions, your comfortable with the available backs and would prefer forwards, but where are the classy, experienced props that you want, and by want I don't mean who you would like but blokes that are actually available ( not a promising youngster) and deserving of a large chunk of the cap? Or does the Warriors continue to be the team with a large part of it's money unspent but no signings.
 

Danpatmac

Guest
Ok we're obviously thinking in very different directions, your comfortable with the available backs and would prefer forwards, but where are the classy, experienced props that you want, and by want I don't mean who you would like but blokes that are actually available ( not a promising youngster) and deserving of a large chunk of the cap? Or does the Warriors continue to be the team with a large part of it's money unspent but no signings.


You can't buy what isn't available. But you can offer large sums to help make people become available.
After watching Frank Paul tonight and last week I'm pretty convinced we could really use him. I would be happy with buying Tomkins if he can tackle and will be playing 6. I don't believe either of those are accurate.

I feel we need HARD running forwards and a high quality half. The rest I believe we already have.
 

surfin

Warriors 1st Grader
May 9, 2012
6,000
Coromandel
You can't buy what isn't available. But you can offer large sums to help make people become available.
After watching Frank Paul tonight and last week I'm pretty convinced we could really use him. I would be happy with buying Tomkins if he can tackle and will be playing 6. I don't believe either of those are accurate.

I feel we need HARD running forwards and a high quality half. The rest I believe we already have.


A great player no doubt and off contract this year, but reading his interview on the Roosters site he seems pretty happy there.
 

¿N. ig-mah¿

Warriors 1st Grader
May 1, 2012
6,081
Invercargill
My ultimate dream for the team over the next couple of years is that we sign Tomkins and end up playing the highest paid player in the NRL in NSW Cup, simply because our other options are playing too well to get dropped. It would really put a rocket up your arse to have a million dollar man breathing down your neck the second you fuck up.

I hope for Fish and Locke to remain, with Fish being a full-time winger, and cover for Locke's inevitable injury. Tomkins at 6 with perhaps some type of positional switch with Locke throughout the game. Leuluai at 9, with Friend either on the bench or playing Vulcans in a one year extension, and Townsend busting his arse waiting for a chance to shine in first grade 9but never getting it. Unfortunately this logjam of quality will end the local dreams of players like Godinet (a personal favourite), and Carlos, but such is life. Laumape may end up having to push Neilson, Manu or Konrad out to get his chance, but he is young, talented and driven, so will probably do just that at some stage.

Lets hope we can have such a conundrum happening in the props as well.
 

Gizzyfan

Warriors 1st Grader
Jan 2, 2013
5,495
To those who are worried about losing current players because we are signing players, take a read of the injuries thread. I think it has been conclusively shown that direct promotion from U20's is flawed. This is a high contact sport with high injury risks. One of the reasons for the present run is the lack of multiple players being injured. A big factor in early season form IMO.
 

Defence

Warriors 1st Grader
May 9, 2012
6,242
Well if the club have done their math and think they can keep all the young talent and still have a mil left over I'd rather they spent it all on one superstar than bought three journey men. The superstar will mean one less spot in the top 25 but the journeymen would mean three less spots for the youngsters and they may end up playing vulcans anyway.
I'd rather that superstar was a half or hooker but it looks like they tried that on first ( carney) and had no takers.
For example would u guys rather fpn, George rose and timana tahu ( remembering that would mean 3 less spots for the likes of vete, ikahihifo and fusitua) or tomkins?
 

surfin

Warriors 1st Grader
May 9, 2012
6,000
Coromandel
My ultimate dream for the team over the next couple of years is that we sign Tomkins and end up playing the highest paid player in the NRL in NSW Cup, simply because our other options are playing too well to get dropped. It would really put a rocket up your arse to have a million dollar man breathing down your neck the second you fuck up.

I hope for Fish and Locke to remain, with Fish being a full-time winger, and cover for Locke's inevitable injury. Tomkins at 6 with perhaps some type of positional switch with Locke throughout the game. Leuluai at 9, with Friend either on the bench or playing Vulcans in a one year extension, and Townsend busting his arse waiting for a chance to shine in first grade 9but never getting it. Unfortunately this logjam of quality will end the local dreams of players like Godinet (a personal favourite), and Carlos, but such is life. Laumape may end up having to push Neilson, Manu or Konrad out to get his chance, but he is young, talented and driven, so will probably do just that at some stage.

Lets hope we can have such a conundrum happening in the props as well.


We all know you love Locke, fair enough he's a great player, but again have you been sitting in on discussions with Tomkins to know where he will play if signed and what his contract will contain in regards to making him the NRLs highest paid player. You are right about one thing Locke will miss games due to injury but I am wondering how you know Fish will be available and able to cover his spot when this happens. Lets wait for an announcement that Tomkins or anyone else for that matter has actually been signed before we decide how it affects the team makeup.
 
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