General Christchurch Shooting

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Sup42

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David Lange was also a very shallow type of guy, absolutely outstanding with rhetoric and quips and was a rock star on the world stage, but many who knew him regarded him as a total dickhead.

Jacinda I regard as lightweight but she has put on a really good show over this, and has come across as very genuine, so good on her, but I still think she is a lightweight.

Do I need to mention Norman Kirk? He was also a leader on the world stage for dragging our troops out of Vietnam, but otherwise a genuine strange bastard who along with Muldoon gave the rise of the need to drop FPP elections.

The common thread, all Labour Prime Ministers.

I left out Helen Clark, because she was no dickhead, nor lightweight, but a very cheap politician, but they all are.
Yeah I knew Lange.

My brother was a gifted artist. He did a piece of Art which a Parnel gallery thought was by one of the NZ Masters. He was fifteen.

The reason Lange got to see it, was that my brother failed UE art.

That was to do with his grade in English, nothing to do with the art. The master piece he submitted which a parnel gallery offered him sixty thousand for, had a boot print on it, by a UE assesor who must have trodden on it and not given a shit.

My mother took it to Lange and asked him to do something about UE accreditation ( the rules changed the following year).

All Lange said was "Give you six grand for it I really like the picture".
 
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David Lange was also a very shallow type of guy, absolutely outstanding with rhetoric and quips and was a rock star on the world stage, but many who knew him regarded him as a total dickhead.

Jacinda I regard as lightweight but she has put on a really good show over this, and has come across as very genuine, so good on her, but I still think she is a lightweight.

Do I need to mention Norman Kirk? He was also a leader on the world stage for dragging our troops out of Vietnam, but otherwise a genuine strange bastard who along with Muldoon gave the rise of the need to drop FPP elections.

The common thread, all Labour Prime Ministers.

I left out Helen Clark, because she was no dickhead, nor lightweight, but a very cheap politician, but they all are.
You can't really fake the compassion the PM has shown since Christchurch, it's borderline insulting to say she has been "putting on a good show."

I don't really think its fair to label someone a lightweight when she is obviously able to inspire the will of the people to believe in her . The woman has won a election from no where and is now one of the most admired leaders in the world after Christchurch.

We could easily list the pros and cons of all the National leaders and it wouldn't be pretty.

It's ain't a coincidence its mainly old men that seem to say she's a lightweight or belittlingly referring to her a "Cindy".
 
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Sup42

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You can't really fake the compassion the PM has shown since Christchurch, it's borderline insulting to say she has been "putting on a good show."

I don't really think its fair to label someone a lightweight when she is obviously able to inspire the will of the people to believe in her . The woman has won a election from no where and is now one of the most admired leaders in the world after Christchurch.

We could easily list the pros and cons of all the National leaders and it wouldn't be pretty.

It's ain't a coincidence its mainly old men that seem to say she's a lightweight or belittlingly referring to her a "Cindy".
Speaking of old men.

Watching Winston sat beside her while she preached tolerance of imigrants was like watching an epileptic have a mild seizure with all the eyebrow twitching, blinking and looking down in introspection, real genuine personal shame.

Plus you can imagine him thinking 'Fark Im a genius chosing this girl on election night'
 
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Is she the Shaun Johnson of NZ politics? A good highlight reel of rhetoric?

Let me preface this by saying I am a national voter. I don't like Labours philosophy or policies for the most part.

This government and Jacinda have been full of talk and very little action. They have come across as ill prepared, naive at times, lacking real world experience and know how.

However, this is the first time I have been really impressed by Jacinda and the first time I have found her truly genuine - as you would hope everyone would be in this situation. The right words, delivered fantastically, leading in incredibly difficult circumstances. She has backed this up with quick common sense action (though I had hoped they would have gone further than they have with the changes to gun control laws).

I hope this is the beginning of great things from her and the government.

Say what you believe is right for the country and back it up with action.

Not what you think will win you votes, not what you think you will be able to get away with.

Do what is required.
 
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Inruin

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Speaking of old men.

Watching Winston sat beside her while she preached tolerance of imigrants was like watching an epileptic have a mild seizure with all the eyebrow twitching, blinking and looking down in introspection, real genuine personal shame.

Plus you can imagine him thinking 'Fark Im a genius chosing this girl on election night'
Don't forget he was completely against any changes to gun laws previously also. In one tragic event Winston and his partied policies have been found wanting
 
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Sup42

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Is she the Shaun Johnson of NZ politics? A good highlight reel of rhetoric?

Let me preface this by saying I am a national voter. I don't like Labours philosophy or policies for the most part.

This government and Jacinda have been full of talk and very little action. They have come across as ill prepared, naive at times, lacking real world experience and know how.

However, this is the first time I have been really impressed by Jacinda and the first time I have found her truly genuine - as you would hope everyone would be in this situation. The right words, delivered fantastically, leading in incredibly difficult circumstances. She has backed this up with quick common sense action (though I had hoped they would have gone further than they have with the changes to gun control laws). I hope this is the beginning of great things from her and the government. Say what you believe is right for the country and back it up with action. Not what you think will win you votes, not what you think you will be able to get away with. Do what is required.
Nice Analogy.

Even her Mentor Helen Clark fairly admitted that she held concerns for Jacinda should she win the election.

Clark said basically what you are saying but in a different way, she admitted that at Jacinda's time in a political career that she herself (Clark) would not have had the experience needed to lead a three way party coalition with a veteran like Winston.

Clark did say that Jacinda was different, extremely talented in politics (reminiscent of your Johnson comparison) and that it would be unfair to assume that she would not succeed where the majority of politicians would almost certainly fail this young and inexperienced with the type of shaky coalition NZ first and the Greens promised to be pre election.

You would have to say unlike any SJ comparrisons that she has done an outstanding job of making sure Winnie and the greens can function together.

Im not a conservative. But I believe that Winston is one of the greatest PMs NZ never had. So she has a serious big dog as her deputy, and it works.
 
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I can pull rank here on age.

The Vietnam war was a public relations disaster because the press were showing young American soldiers being killed in prime time. It was also one of the saddest conflicts in modern history because it was so senseless yet complicated.

That Police Chief knew the Viet Cong prisoner had just murdered a Vietnamese Army Officer, his wife and kids and his elderly mother by slitting their throats. Shit happens in war, and it made TV.

The Vietnam war was caused by the French because they had their arses kicked by Germany, then grovelled to them with the Vichy government, got their arses kicked again at Vientiane by the Thais and then finally by the North Vietnamese at Diem Bien Phu.

The US could have helped the Vietnamese get independence from the French after WWI, but they ignored the plea for help. So they went to the Communists for help, and got it. The French used their influence in Europe to drag the US into Vietnam, and the rest is sad history.

So the only difference with the Black Hawk down episode was that is was another cockup by the Americans and the sight of US servicemen being desecrated was judged as bit raw for prime time. That bit I can understand but it is still censorship, History is history, news is news.

BTW and slightly off topic. Can somebody please tell me why this is news? Just asking like.
View attachment 40335
That's a masterpiece. Great view O.O
 
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wizards rage

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From children in the playground bullying anyone that looks or acts different... right through to following sporting teams. It’s human to divide ourselves and try to ‘dominate’ others, to band together with like minded and ostracise those that are not like us. That ruthless, competitive element is in our nature.

This guy touched on a lot of populist issues - mass immigration, globalisation - do we lose our culture in a great big melting pot?

This guy was at the very end of the bell curve, yet every bell curve must have its outliers. How do we stop the next one if it’s only the extremes of natural human nature?

It’s scary stuff
 
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David Lange was also a very shallow type of guy, absolutely outstanding with rhetoric and quips and was a rock star on the world stage, but many who knew him regarded him as a total dickhead.

Jacinda I regard as lightweight but she has put on a really good show over this, and has come across as very genuine, so good on her, but I still think she is a lightweight.

Do I need to mention Norman Kirk? He was also a leader on the world stage for dragging our troops out of Vietnam, but otherwise a genuine strange bastard who along with Muldoon gave the rise of the need to drop FPP elections.

The common thread, all Labour Prime Ministers.

I left out Helen Clark, because she was no dickhead, nor lightweight, but a very cheap politician, but they all are.
It's quite the opposite really. These people were loved because they put heart before dollars. Because they clearly stood for something and put their necks on the line in a crisis. They represent who Kiwis want to be and see themselves that way.

Which is why people vote labour. They believe that success is about looking after each other, especially low income earners and families. They see Nats as the filthy rich.

National supporters vote for them because they believe that business-centred decision-making is best for them-they're usually business owners/investors. They see labour as only good for spending all the money the Nats created.

The truth is neither party actually can influence whether there is a recession or not. The world feasts or starves by how well the US and, more and more China fare from cycle to cycle.

But they'll blame each other because that's what the political professors have taught is how politics is supposed to be.

But name a National leader who truly inspired you? Name one who stood for something?

Key was an ordinary leader but knew how to feed rhetoric to kiwis. I've seen old footage of him speaking on camera about speculating when he was in his early 20s. Very convincing when talking numbers and money. That's where he shone. He would have been a star on Wall St IMO. And if you think back to his time as PM, he was a master at saying enough to appear to care, but mostly his monologues centered around how much money the govt was going to make the country. Which in this modern age resonates with people at the beginning of a recession.

BUT, eventually, the economy starts to prosper again and all the labour turncoats start to realise that the rich got richer and the poor got poorer, so they crawl back to labour.

This last recession, Key profited from labours empty cupboard of new leaders. In fact Jacinda wasn't expected to make it until next election at the earliest.

The moment that defined who Key was, was when our slain soldiers in Iraq memorial was happening, he fucked off to the States to watch his boy play Baseball, with supporters saying he put family first. So I'd imagine during the current crisis, he'd take off to golf with his mate Obama while Bill English as stand-in PM will have reminded everyone that guns are a growth industry now- always look at the positives.

Also those teapot tapes. He was caught out cold expressing his true feelings about people on the dole all being bludgers. That tells what John Key thinks of Kiwis.

All my perspective of course. I perceive that you call Jacinda lightweight because she's young.

Yes young, but smart and knows how to connect with Kiwis and what is most important. And is not encumbered by the old, outdated thinking. Which is why she won the election I believe. She resonated with Millenials whose voting numbers were small but just enough to tip the election.
 
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gREVUS

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Gee I just came across a video that features prominently on the website of the guardian (BTW Jacinda is a rock star on their web page no joke, she has a JFK style presence there).

The Video I am referring to plays a montage like a rap battle, between Jacinda at the United Nations versus Donald Trump.

She makes Trump look like an idiot (these are sound bites cut and sliced to show the contrasting rhetoric).

She is a media darling outside these two wee islands of ours.
oh hell yea, over here shes like the second coming. i keep hearing how they all wish she would come run this place
 
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Horriors2013

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From children in the playground bullying anyone that looks or acts different... right through to following sporting teams. It’s human to divide ourselves and try to ‘dominate’ others, to band together with like minded and ostracise those that are not like us. That ruthless, competitive element is in our nature.

This guy touched on a lot of populist issues - mass immigration, globalisation - do we lose our culture in a great big melting pot?

This guy was at the very end of the bell curve, yet every bell curve must have its outliers. How do we stop the next one if it’s only the extremes of natural human nature?

It’s scary stuff
Let me re-interpret what you are saying from an objective viewpoint.

People tend to gravitate towards others who are like-minded. They build a virtual
or real community, where they revel in being around peers who think similarly.

When challenges arrive in an individual's life, there are several ways that can react or respond. How that plays out for that individual is determined by several factors. Their upbringing, their current environment, and their experiences in between.

I would imagine that a white supremacist who becomes radicalized can actually come from almost any warp of life. You only need a few intense experiences.

It starts with an individual who goes through a tough period in their life where emotion is intense. Said individual gets observed by a seasoned white supremacist, who probes by suggesting his tough times are caused by non whites being where they shouldn't be.

If received well, the seasoned vet subtlety adds more racist suggestions over time-this is the grooming period. Eventually, when the vet perceives time is right he introduces the prospect to the leader who begins the incalcation phase.

Here, the prospect is fully immersed in Nazi/Anti-semitist/racist dogma. He gets immersed in hatred intensely. Usually in a darkish room where the brainwashing is most effective due to the lack of outside thinking.

They probably do it under intense persistence over a few consecutive days.

Then, once the prospect has become convinced, they raise the stakes by tieing in inaction as being part of the problem. They'll then add the notion that if the prospect does nothing, white lives are at stake. The future of his children looks dire. His ancestors were oppressed by negroids or something.

So yeah, just like gangs recruit their prospects, the process is the same. I'd imagine ISIS and Al Qaeda is the same.

They just prey on vulnerabilities. Manipulation. I'd imagine that those who truly believe were brainwashed and the leaders themselves started it because they habitually played the victim role in their lives. Rather than work at a solution, they look to blame others.

It's that simple I reckon.

Watch Higher Learning and American History X. You see it clearly.

When I was growing up immigrants were few and far between. The old peeps had xenophobia here . Blaming immigrants for taking their jobs. Truth is, the immigrants were just more desperate and less fussy, less entitled. But how many kids got taught that fallacy?
 
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It's quite the opposite really. These people were loved because they put heart before dollars. Because they clearly stood for something and put their necks on the line in a crisis. They represent who Kiwis want to be and see themselves that way.

Which is why people vote labour. They believe that success is about looking after each other, especially low income earners and families. They see Nats as the filthy rich.

National supporters vote for them because they believe that business-centred decision-making is best for them-they're usually business owners/investors. They see labour as only good for spending all the money the Nats created.

The truth is neither party actually can influence whether there is a recession or not. The world feasts or starves by how well the US and, more and more China fare from cycle to cycle.

But they'll blame each other because that's what the political professors have taught is how politics is supposed to be.

But name a National leader who truly inspired you? Name one who stood for something?

Key was an ordinary leader but knew how to feed rhetoric to kiwis. I've seen old footage of him speaking on camera about speculating when he was in his early 20s. Very convincing when talking numbers and money. That's where he shone. He would have been a star on Wall St IMO. And if you think back to his time as PM, he was a master at saying enough to appear to care, but mostly his monologues centered around how much money the govt was going to make the country. Which in this modern age resonates with people at the beginning of a recession.

BUT, eventually, the economy starts to prosper again and all the labour turncoats start to realise that the rich got richer and the poor got poorer, so they crawl back to labour.

This last recession, Key profited from labours empty cupboard of new leaders. In fact Jacinda wasn't expected to make it until next election at the earliest.

The moment that defined who Key was, was when our slain soldiers in Iraq memorial was happening, he fucked off to the States to watch his boy play Baseball, with supporters saying he put family first. So I'd imagine during the current crisis, he'd take off to golf with his mate Obama while Bill English as stand-in PM will have reminded everyone that guns are a growth industry now- always look at the positives.

Also those teapot tapes. He was caught out cold expressing his true feelings about people on the dole all being bludgers. That tells what John Key thinks of Kiwis.

All my perspective of course. I perceive that you call Jacinda lightweight because she's young.

Yes young, but smart and knows how to connect with Kiwis and what is most important. And is not encumbered by the old, outdated thinking. Which is why she won the election I believe. She resonated with Millenials whose voting numbers were small but just enough to tip the election.
She won because Winston would never go with the Nats. Some nice rhetoric from you but very generalistic. People didn't run to Labour for any of those reasons. She was a fresh voice up against a very capable man that lacked personality. She was and her government still is very light on detail (the number of policy announcements they make and one of the first questions media ask is how much will that cost? Where will the money come from? Um we haven't got that yet) You also forget that National was the single party that got the most votes. I also think you do a disservice to Key (and English) with what they achieved through the worst economic time in recent history and with the disasters that hit the country.
The reality is it has nothing to do with anything you have said. The reality is people don't generally like having the same party in government for more than a couple of terms. 3 terms sometimes, 4 terms not ever I don't think?

The thing that bugs me with your poor get poorer, rich get richer under national is that they got richer under Helen Clark's Labour. They got the biggest gains in house prices under Labour. The biggest gains to low income earners were under John Key's National.

Anyway, this thread is turning in to a political debate which is the very last thing a thread like this should be.

I think we can all agree Taxinda...I'm joking...Jacinda has done an amazing job.
 
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I got put off Jacinda as I felt she used her pregnancy to unfairly manipulate herself into her position, felt this sent a negative message rather than one of actual empowerment. Then when the baby was born she seemed to take every photo op available rather than make any real headway into fixing real issues- I saw her as an ‘Instagram politician’ in it for the fame and the wrong reasons if I’m being blunt.
However she has handled this crisis exceptionally and couldn’t have come through some very trying circumstances any better and I’ll give credit where it is due and she is slowly winning me over. Regardless I think she’s be hard pressed not to win another term after this.
 
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When I was growing up immigrants were few and far between. The old peeps had xenophobia here . Blaming immigrants for taking their jobs. Truth is, the immigrants were just more desperate and less fussy, less entitled. But how many kids got taught that fallacy?
Great post but I see examples of conflict and hate everywhere:

Europeans slowly losing their majority;
Maori and their loss of cultural identity;
Muslims and the terrorist from their extremists;
Woman/ feminists and ‘me too’ movement;
America and the wall;
Unions vs the government;
Left vs right;
Rich vs poor;
Greens vs capitalists;
Etc, etc, etc

On the day of the shooting kids were protesting about climate change and the organisers admitted some of the kids didn’t really understand why they were there.

Human nature, by its nature, is divisive. One day it’s a nutter assaulting a Green MP, the next this nutter is expressed his grievance 😔
 
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These events have pulled people into line about what’s really important, it seemed like we were gradually drifting into American style reds vs blues no matter what the other side say or do they are WRONG. I hate the binary black/white, good/bad.
 
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These events have pulled people into line about what’s really important, it seemed like we were gradually drifting into American style reds vs blues no matter what the other side say or do they are WRONG. I hate the binary black/white, good/bad.
a short sharp shock usually saprks people into action.

its not long before they slip back in to it though

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12215110

or maybe some people just don't get it in the first place?
 
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Sup42

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Six days. Some kind of record for this country, decisive action.
a short sharp shock usually saprks people into action.

its not long before they slip back in to it though

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12215110

or maybe some people just don't get it in the first place?
He's got real Psychopathic tendencies guy.

He pops up when there is chaos and thrives and revels in division, text book stuff.

He draws attention to himself and his movement at the lowest ebb of moral decency.

Dudes an ignoramus too. We should all know that his Christian God is the exact same God that the Jews, and Christians worship - God Allah Yahweh they're all the same deity.

That's why he's now saying JC is the only true God, because he can't separate the narrative of the worlds main Judeo Christian, Judaism, and Muslim branches all springing from the same place.

And that's about enough about Religious dogma for now, not seeking a debate on that topic.

With this mans preaching of intolerance, including homophobia, I could see a time where the Government reclassifies his 'Religions' Status as a hate group and thereby removes his tax exemptions.
 
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Six days. Some kind of record for this country, decisive action.
Yes, and while it doesn't go far enough I hear Jacinda saying that there will be more changes to come. I'm hoping that it is in the very near future and not years down the track after 3 or 4 focus groups or committees have made recommendations.

Why don't we have a gun registry? why don't we record who is buying ammunition and in what volumes? Why aren't we banning all semi automatic weapons?
 
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