General Chris Rattue: Cleary out McClennan In

Tajhay_old

Guest
I think we need to start winning before thinking bout a dynasty....it's interesting what a few losses does...ppl start getting fanciful thoughts...
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
I have never met Ivan Cleary-have any of you guys? I have only ever seen him on T.V in the pre and post match interviews and he gives the impression that he's a very nice guy. Nice guys finish last comes to mind! I have been reading on this forum about the Warriors lack of passion and mongrel, particularly amongst the players, and I couldn't agree more, but no matter how pathetically the team is playing, no matter how ridiculous a mistake has been made, when the camera zooms to the coaches box what do we see??? Seriously, the guy looks like he's thinking about his investment portfolio! Contrast that with the likes of Hasler, Bellamy, Elliott, Cartwright, Lang and others and you begin to wonder if our coach has any passion or mongrel at all. Clearly he does not have an aggressive nature, but there are times when you have to scream " mother****** i've had enough! Rip a door off in the locker room, mouth obscenities through the glass of the coaches box, anything, just show us, and the team, that you give a shit!
Our gameplay is the worst in the comp. Our attack is the worst in the comp ( I don't care what the stats say, I watch with my own two eyes ) Our basic ball skills, kick & chase and general fitness are the worst in the comp. All this despite having, on paper, an awesome squad of talent who have been playing this game for a very long time. So who is to blame? I imagine that an opposition fullback, upon returning a kick from us, is thinking to himself " well, i've got 20-40 metres to decide what i'm going to do" Is this a lack of fitness? Who's to blame for that? Good example was Lousi breaking the line vs Manly with an arm completely free begging for someone to take the ball but nobody came. What the hell is up with that? We have massively talented players who do not appear to be allowed to play their natural game-the game that got them to this level in the first place. Who's to blame for that? If the coach has no passion or mongrel, can we expect the team to? Just my thoughts. Going back into hibernation now. L8trz

I had a great opportunity many moons ago to have a good detailed chat to Ivan. It was a couple of hours before a game, and we chatted for about half hour or so outside Mt Smart #2 while Sione Faumuina was training with the development squad, Henry Fa'afili was getting mobbed, and Stacey Jones was slowly making his way toward the ground under a hush that he was making a comeback. It was the Sharks/Warriors game in 2002.

I was enormously impressed by Ivan. He was obviously a senior player, but he was extremely analytical about the game and what parts impacted upon their aggressive attacking gameplans. He talked about preparation and freedom. There was some talk about discipline and 'it all starts up front' kind of mentality but he was surprisingly open about enjoying attacking footy ...

I'm not sure what has happened. The Roosters reserve grade played attacking footy under him. He came over here and with Kemp and Campion did a gallant job in instilling some discipline that was badly needed. I also think at the start the team had a lot of creativity and a lot of instinctive offloading. I really think two players became a key for Ivan's style of coaching. Wade McKinnon, who lost a bit of his mojo when he got injured in that preseason, and Steve Price. Price could lay the platform, and McKinnon would hunt around for an offload. I think with those players you go to a basic gameplan of completing sets until Wade got onto an offload... off the back of the break there was always a chance for someone like Vatuvei or Ropati to take advantage of a lot of space as the defence scrambled... you even had guys like Todd Byrne who came over and got a few good opportunities to run the footy in space. Everything was grand. The last few years though those keys to success have wained away for one reason or another and I haven't seen Ivan adapt to go to Game Plan V2.0. And that's the scarey part. Perhaps if Billy Slater was here and a decent offloading prop like even a Dan Hunt was here we'd be sitting back applauding some brilliant footy, but we don't have the cattle to play that game plan. Maybe the big hopes were pinned to Mateo interlinking with Fisiiahi?
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
TRUE THAT.......!!! LMAO

Bellamy has passion. The only thing you can't see is the spit hitting the glass in front of him as he yells his string of expletives, but he's just as quick to jump and cheer when things go right.
Cartwright at times looks like he's about to burst blood vessels in his forehead, but jumps and cheers as well.
Pan right slowly to Cleary.... sipping tea in the box!

Daniel Anderson had passion. It didn't work out in the long run for him. There was a great deal of talk about Anderson at the end of his tenure how they had lost respect for him because of some of his dressing room rants. In any man-management there has to be more to it than punishment. Most organisational behavioural psychological empirical reports point to positive reinforcement (acknowledgement, recognition) being far greater motivators than punitive systems.

I don't see Wayne Bennett as being all that animated. Once in every blue moon he'll raise it slightly, and because he's so consistent the players know it and they react to it.

In that essence, players need to be able to get themselves up for a game. I think the coaches job is to be analytical, spot tactical weaknesses to take advantage of and implement game plans to maximise one's one strengths and depose of an oppositions strengths.
 

Tyrael_old

Guest
Iafeta I really like your post. You can see Fish sniffing around for offloads and he was doing well until that injury. I really feel for the fella. I reckon Lewis Brown is a really aggressive attacking player and I look forward to him being in the centres. However with him in the centres we've actually removed our best forward as well.

Also...Do we have the slowest backline in the NRL this round or what (over 100 metres)?
 

gREVUS_old

Guest
Wow - given the negativity shown on this forum, i can only say - how are we even still in the competition? shouldnt we pack up now and stop wasting other teams time?

just some context, were not bottom of the table, every year we see the same slow start and strong finish, i would like to see them start faster, but i dont want to go back to missing out on finals footy either. If we are prepared to lie and cheat ala storm we can buy all the best players and win championships without the grind as well. But from what i have seen the warriors under cleary dont play that game. Maybe we just dont have the cash...

Any changes made will mix things up, are you prepared to write off the season now?
 

Ryan_old

Guest
I am optimistic, but it just sucks to be a serious supporter when the team cannot seem to build off the previous season. Why is that we are going back to step one at the beginning of each season?
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
I wouldn't make the change right now TBH. Grevus makes a good point that we often start slow, end strong. I guess my biggest issue is not the position on the table but the continual demise of anything that suggests we have a plan of attack that can beat big times consistently. I really wonder where our points are going to come from... looking at the way our team is playing, I think they feel the same. Someone else made the point recently about our halves. He's gone through a massive amount of halves and no one has really cemented themselves as a stand out. There's been an issue in cattle obviously there, but they just don't seem to last under Ivan, they seem to be clueless under him. A case in point is Nathan Fien. Others will argue, but I got tired of him belting the backboards at Mt Smart with kicks with no direction. But then he goes away and plays for Bennett for the Kiwis and St George, and all of a sudden he's one of the top hookers in the comp with clarity in his direction and execution. When I watch a Bennett coached side or a Bellamy coached side, I think it has two fifths of SFA in terms of how aggro they are in the dressing rooms, but all their players know their roles and they all play to them. Our blokes look clueless. No one runs a hole against the defensive line... no one makes a break off a nice wide sweeping shift play... no props hit in behind the markers and pop a ball to the halves with the edges dragged in to help the A defenders... no fullback aside from Fisiiahi backs up the main offloaders... there's a lot of one out running with no one going up on teh inside and outside... there's a lot of dummy half running from our hookers... there's a huge reliance on cross field bombs, very rarely do we grubber in behind with a wave of attackers to score a try. The amazing thing sometimes with Bennett coached sides is he trots out the Darius Boyd/Karmichael Hunt second man play to draw in the centre/winger to give his centre/winger space on the outside time and time again. If the centre or winger don't come in Boyd/Hunt take the line on and create a bust irrespective. Its simple but works just about everytime. Last week, Dessy Hasler had Kieran Foran sweeping to the left and getting William Hopoate using his footwork against James Maloney to drag him out of the line to create a fractured line break opportunity. It was smart tactics. They looked at a weakness and took advantage of it. We don't. We have a simple plan, and never change it unless desperation sets in.

From a business perspective, the crowds seem to be interested yes when we're winning... but also when we play exciting football. This style that is so Australianised and forgets to use our real skill diminishes skill long term and makes the brand less attractive to fans also.

Defensively I'm not too concerned. We've been there or thereabouts defensively, but we haven't hit 30 points in a game this season nor do we look like we can.

I would suggest Ivan is safe until say round 13-14. If things are looking bleak then and there are no tell tale signs of a revival then I think its a good idea for Brian McClennan to get in there and be given the rest of the season to start a culture change, and also for him to assess the quality of players at his disposal and get the roster starting to take shape as per his plans.

On players, it was disappointing to see Chase Stanley go back to the Dragons. Of course it was always likely being his old stomping ground and that his brother has resigned, but given our dearth of centres it was an opportunity to chase him and perhaps see if the Storm would release him early.
 
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Tajhay_old

Guest
On players, it was disappointing to see Chase Stanley go back to the Dragons. Of course it was always likely being his old stomping ground and that his brother has resigned, but given our dearth of centres it was an opportunity to chase him and perhaps see if the Storm would release him early.

warriors did chase(excuse the pun) him last season...i dont think he wanted to come to auckland...
 

wazzam_old

Guest
Nice theory, but it holds no water thanks to a bloke named Bennett.

Oh yeah! Meant to point him out as the exception but didn't want to go on & on... There can only be one Clint Eastwood in the world of NRL coaches! He is it.
 

cornelius_sulla_old

Guest
The Warriors need to get Bluey into the coaching mix in some way shape or form. I'd hate to see him go to Souths when we could tie him up at least in some kind of succession plan. I think that Ivan deserves to go out with dignity - he's tried his guts out to make our club work. I may be one of a minority though, judging by the amount of spleens vented his way on this site!
 

vanillabumblebees_old

Guest
I hope we don't get rid of Cleary before his contract is up next year. He's done us very well, taken us to the finals, most successful coach etc. We owe it to him to honour his contract. And if he hasn't bought the 'ship home in that time, then is the time to bring back bluey.
 

sebastian_old

Guest
I hope we don't get rid of Cleary before his contract is up next year. He's done us very well, taken us to the finals, most successful coach etc. We owe it to him to honour his contract. And if he hasn't bought the 'ship home in that time, then is the time to bring back bluey.

I think thats a fair point of view, while i agree Bluey could bring something different, the hate against Ivan is laughable. I happen to believe their are clubs that want Ivan as their head coach. Don't forget Brisbane in 2008, wanted to swap Bennett for Cleary, our club managed to keep him, that time. In regards to Ivans history of coaching our team, we honestly havn't had the best cattle in the past, yet people judge him like we had the cattle of a Melbourne or Brisbane, that irks me. Having said that i think our squad is geniunely getter better, across the board so in the future Ivan won't have that excuse anymore. I've been guilty of it just as much as anyone but i really do believe we fans are too harsh on him either way.
 

Spence_old

Guest
The coach, in any team, is the easiest person to direct hate towards. It's similar to wanting to bring in young players, we always think about the best case scenario in any hypothetical situation.
 

Fazz_old

Guest
I like Cleary, but please tell me we didn't turn down Bennett...I might actually go and have a bit of a cry now.
 

Fazz_old

Guest
Haha cheers bro. Eh, that makes it alright then. I wonder if Bennett recommended Cleary or if the Broncos/papers just pulled his name out of their arses?
 

mrblonde_old

Guest
Sounds believable - "Let's get Ivan in for one year, he's solid enough, then say 'Thank you, goodbye Ivan!' once Bellyache's available!"

Maybe the length of the deal didn't appeal to Ivan ie he'd have signed if it was for a multi-season contract.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned about Cleary:

He's stopped saying "We're almost there."

So all you anti-Cleary people (you know who you are!) who say Ivan doesn't/won't learn owe him a big apology!
 

Tajhay_old

Guest
wait for the next loss and this thread will become alive again...easy to blame the coach when the players arent putting in... i would consider the warriors to have overachieved as a whole with the players it has on its books during clearys time here. our spine 1/6/7/9 has been weak from the get go, but it seems all that is ignored and he would be labelled as 'mediocre' regardless by certain posters in here...
 

Spence_old

Guest
I think the most laughable flaw people find in Cleary is his supposed poor retention of halves. He haven't had a half decent half since Cleary took over.
 

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