General Auckland Waterfront Stadium

Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

Good point. That land is high value, especially compared with an industrial dump like Mount Smart. I recall it was one of the first points that JD raised.

As a business decision it never made sense to upgrade it just for the RWC that is obvious now. The business people i.e. the Councils lenders and maybe even Treasury will know that. I am sure it is just the sentimental politics getting in the way. I say that because of John Key's lack of support so far for the new stadium.

Key said it was a good idea, just that it wouldn't be government funded if it went ahead.

The most stupid thing is that we apear to be seriously considering a new stadium for the Blues, Warriors and Auckland rugby AND keeping Eden Park - if it's losing money now how's it gonna cope on the income of four events a year?
 
Miket12

Miket12

A 45,000 seat stadium costs more in R&M than a park, Mike!

Commercial developments are on skinny margins without having to pay tens of Millons of dollars to cover someone else's depreciation.
I personally wouldn't want the EPTB, or the ARU or Auckland cricket involved with the ownership of the new Stadium - I was thinking of them using the land rent to help meet their financial obligations of R&M and the current loan repayments .... They created their own mess, they should be left to sort them out.
 
Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

I personally wouldn't want the EPTB, or the ARU or Auckland cricket involved with the ownership of the new Stadium - I was thinking of them using the land rent to help meet their financial obligations of R&M and the current loan repayments .... They created their own mess, they should be left to sort them out.

I agree.

However, if they want to join the Warriors in a new council owned waterfront stadium they would need to pay market rent as tenants. The only way to do this would be to sell off Eden Park.
 
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Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

I've just lifted this from the other thread on this subject;

Source: https://www.nzwarriors.com/threads/mount-smart-stadium-home-until-2028.46885/page-4#ixzz43UHzEXmL

STADIUMPLANC.jpg

So lets think about this; by 2028 Eden Park will need major works to keep it open and the Warriors lease on Mount Smart will be up for renewal. Surely, around 2020 there should be a discussion around;
1) Upgrading Western Springs so it can cater for all major cricket matches played in Auckland - the cost could be covered by the council but recouped by a fair lease to the cricket people (and by fair leases I mean ones which enable the council to maintain the stadium and pay back the interest and make a return on its investment)
2) Building a rectangular waterfront stadium of 50,000 seats - it could be designed to allow upper tiers to be opened as and when required - the cost should be covered by the council but recouped by fair leases to the Blues, Auckland Rugby, the NZRFU, the NZRL and the Warriors, plus one-off hires for football and concerts
3) Eden Park and Mount Smart could be sold off by the Eden Park Trust/council in 2029-30
4) QBE stays as is and a fair lease is negotiated with North Harbour Rugby and the Blues
 
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mode81

mode81

Not from Auckland but I'd support a new Waterfront Stadium. As mentioned by many already NZ needs a modern national stadium 50 - 60k capacity and the Waterfront Stadium fits the bill as far as I'm concerned.

It'll cost a fortune most things do now days but looking towards the future you'd pretty much look back and be grateful to have gone through with it. Get all the necessary info, research, brainy guys involved but just make it happen.

It's in the right vicinity for the City. Close to the Tennis centre. Vector Arena. Viaduct restaurants. The Cloud. Bars, Motels & Hotels, CBD, Skycity.. It's a win win for all concerned. Almost like a sports zone part of the city.

Could turn that whole Waterfront into a weekly market and sports festival like atmosphere.. imagine the colour and excitement .. the lights on the harbour itself could be used as a draw card for families to have a night out.. scenery, passing boats, eating dinner at the wharf go to the footy.. promotes itself pretty much.

Mount Smart looks tired and old. Eden Park is like a patched up castle. Western Springs is just rugged and suited to stock cars while North Harbour Stadium feels empty and void of atmosphere at the best of times.

The only thing that makes me nervous is the longer talks continue about a new stadium the less chance of it actually happening because of the politics and logistics involved. Once talks drag you know it's not gonna happen.

Please Auckland City embrace this opportunity.
 
Miket12

Miket12

I agree.

However, if they want to join the Warriors in a new council owned waterfront stadium they would need to ay market rent as tenants. The only way to do this would be to sell off Eden Park.

Difficulty with the EPTB selling of the current assets is that although the entire property they own is valued at $260 mil, the land it's self is valued at only $13 mil (figures are from the Council GIS site based on the rateable value of the property). Let's say that figure is wrong due to the rapid increase in property values in Auckland and double the land value to $26 mil - that still doesn't cover the nearly $50 mil owed to the council by the EPTB if the figures in the following article are to be believed. Of course, they may be extremely lucky and find someone who wants to buy a complete stadium but realistically who would - especially if the plan is to provide a new Waterfront Stadium with similar capacity and a developer is not going to want to pay market rates ($260 mil) for a Stadium only to rip it down for land worth only $13-$26 mil. The current improvements only have value as a Stadium.

The only real way forward is for the EPTB to add value to the assets it owns which aren't directly related to the Number #1 ground and stadium and use that to reduce it's current debt load and R&M costs.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11333220

Here's a question for those in the financial field:
If assets owned by Eden Park Trust Board is valued in their books at say $300 mil and they were to sell the whole property to a developer for $25 mil for the land value, are they able to claim back of their taxes a percentage of the loss of sale of the asset (a percentage of the $275 loss incurred due to the sale) and use that money to firstly pay of their debts ($50 mil) and then provide funding for a waterfront stadium with the rest?
 
MarkW

MarkW

Hey, if the Council can work with private investors to help raise the capital required I'm all for a waterfront stadium then I'm all for it. What is of much greater concern to Aucklanders right now though is the city's infrastructure. Transport options and traffic are diabolical (but small inroads are being made at least) and our housing market is of course completely fucked... unless your a wealthy property speculator. So, I think its fair to say that Auckland has more pressing matters to attend to that a stadium build, at least in the near future. I'd love to see it happen, and plans can certainly be made now but I can't see the lights being switched on within the next 10 years.
 
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Miket12

Miket12

Hey, if the Council can work with private investors to help raise the capital required I'm all for a waterfront stadium then I'm all for it. What is of much greater concern to Aucklanders right now though is the city's infrastructure. Transport options and traffic are diabolical (but small inroads are being made at least) and our housing market is of course completely fucked... unless your a wealthy property speculator. So, I think its fair to say that Auckland has more pressing matters to attend to that a stadium build, at least in the near future. I'd love to see it happen, and plans can certainly be made now but I can't see the lights being switched on within the next 10 years.
It was interesting to see how Dallas/Ft Worth is dealing with their traffic issues. In a lot of places, they have built/are building a second layer of freeway above the existing and it's tolled. So you have a choice - sit in the cues or driving in the tolled lanes. Once the tolls have made enough to cover that section of roading, the tolls are removed and the entire upper level is used to take traffic in one direction and the lower level is used to take traffic in the other.

Yes, building an entire elevated freeway (for Dallas)/motorway (for Auckland) is expensive but far less than buying hundreds of properties to create yet another motorway corridor.

In other places, they've extended the width of the existing elevated freeway and you have the choice - travel in the less congested tolled lanes or stay in the other lanes.

And whoever decided that it would be a great idea to have Auckland's south western motorway traffic and the south eastern traffic all join the southern motorway traffic at the same point (Manukau) doesn't seem to have a very good understanding of traffic movements.
 
Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

Difficulty with the EPTB selling of the current assets is that although the entire property they own is valued at $260 mil, the land it's self is valued at only $13 mil (figures are from the Council GIS site based on the rateable value of the property). Let's say that figure is wrong due to the rapid increase in property values in Auckland and double the land value to $26 mil - that still doesn't cover the nearly $50 mil owed to the council by the EPTB if the figures in the following article are to be believed. Of course, they may be extremely lucky and find someone who wants to buy a complete stadium but realistically who would - especially if the plan is to provide a new Waterfront Stadium with similar capacity and a developer is not going to want to pay market rates ($260 mil) for a Stadium only to rip it down for land worth only $13-$26 mil. The current improvements only have value as a Stadium.

The only real way forward is for the EPTB to add value to the assets it owns which aren't directly related to the Number #1 ground and stadium and use that to reduce it's current debt load and R&M costs.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11333220

Here's a question for those in the financial field:
If assets owned by Eden Park Trust Board is valued in their books at say $300 mil and they were to sell the whole property to a developer for $25 mil for the land value, are they able to claim back of their taxes a percentage of the loss of sale of the asset (a percentage of the $275 loss incurred due to the sale) and use that money to firstly pay of their debts ($50 mil) and then provide funding for a waterfront stadium with the rest?

Eden Park probably wont need major work for 10 years, about the time the warriors will be looking to renegotiate their next lease - what will the land value be then?
 
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Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

And if the new stadium doesn't happen its rugby and cricket's problem - they will be the ones with the crumbling stadium.
 
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Miket12

Miket12

And if the new stadium doesn't happen its rugby and cricket's problem - they will be the ones with the crumbling stadium.
I personally don't want Auckland Cricket near the new Stadium - surely those "bright sparks" at EPTB and RFA can see that the #1 problem with Eden Park is the shape of the ground. Unless it's filled close to capacity, the ground has very little atmosphere for union/league/football because of the distance the fans are from the pitch and it's too small to be considered a good cricket ground.

They need to look at creating a Hagley Park type cricket venue in Auckland for all first class and international games and not repeat the same mistake.
 
Miket12

Miket12

Eden Park probably won need major work for 10 years, about the time the warriors will be looking to renegotiate their next lease - what will the land value be then?
Who knows! The land value will increase but the improvement value will decrease as it only goes up if more money is spent on improving the facilities is more than what amount would be depreciated annually.
 
Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

I personally don't want Auckland Cricket near the new Stadium - surely those "bright sparks" at EPTB and RFA can see that the #1 problem with Eden Park is the shape of the ground. Unless it's filled close to capacity, the ground has very little atmosphere for union/league/football because of the distance the fans are from the pitch and it's too small to be considered a good cricket ground.

They need to look at creating a Hagley Park type cricket venue in Auckland for all first class and international games and not repeat the same mistake.

The council want to move cricket to a small venue at Western Springs but that wont cater for the once-a-year 40,000 crowd for an ODI vs Australia. Its the same problem with building a 35,000 seat waterfront stadium - do you keep Eden Park for the Nines, two All Black tests a year and the ongoing hope that either the Blues or Warriors make the finals?
 
Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

So lets think about this; by 2028 Eden Park will need major works to keep it open and the Warriors lease on Mount Smart will be up for renewal. Surely, around 2020 there should be a discussion around;
1) Upgrading Western Springs so it can cater for all major cricket matches played in Auckland - the cost could be covered by the council but recouped by a fair lease to the cricket people (and by fair leases I mean ones which enable the council to maintain the stadium and pay back the interest and make a return on its investment)
2) Building a rectangular waterfront stadium of 50,000 seats - it could be designed to allow upper tiers to be opened as and when required - the cost should be covered by the council but recouped by fair leases to the Blues, Auckland Rugby, the NZRFU, the NZRL and the Warriors, plus one-off hires for football and concerts
3) Eden Park and Mount Smart could be sold off by the Eden Park Trust/council in 2029-30
4) QBE stays as is and a fair lease is negotiated with North Harbour Rugby and the Blues

Sorry to quote myself but this makes so much sense I just cant see it happening.
 
Jay M

Jay M

Contributor
Here's a question for those in the financial field:
If assets owned by Eden Park Trust Board is valued in their books at say $300 mil and they were to sell the whole property to a developer for $25 mil for the land value, are they able to claim back of their taxes a percentage of the loss of sale of the asset (a percentage of the $275 loss incurred due to the sale) and use that money to firstly pay of their debts ($50 mil) and then provide funding for a waterfront stadium with the rest?

Short answer: it depends.

You'd need a lot more information before you could make that call. Being a Trust - do they pay tax to the IRD? If so, how much? Regarding tax losses - you can't claim a percentage and get cash for that. All you can do is use them to offset current or future income, negating current or future tax paid. And that depends on whether or not there is continuity of shareholding (I forget if it's 49% or 66% required for losses - one percentage is continuity for losses, one is continuity for imputation credits).

Given they seem short of cash, without looking at their financials, I'd hazard they don't make a large profit or pay a lot of tax. Meaning a large loss on sale would then booked, but probably never used! The carried over amount could be used on a waterfront stadium provided they stayed within the continuity of shareholding % for tax losses with the IRD.
 
Miket12

Miket12

Short answer: it depends.

You'd need a lot more information before you could make that call. Being a Trust - do they pay tax to the IRD? If so, how much? Regarding tax losses - you can't claim a percentage and get cash for that. All you can do is use them to offset current or future income, negating current or future tax paid. And that depends on whether or not there is continuity of shareholding (I forget if it's 49% or 66% required for losses - one percentage is continuity for losses, one is continuity for imputation credits).

Given they seem short of cash, without looking at their financials, I'd hazard they don't make a large profit or pay a lot of tax. Meaning a large loss on sale would then booked, but probably never used! The carried over amount could be used on a waterfront stadium provided they stayed within the continuity of shareholding % for tax losses with the IRD.
Found online the latest EPTB Annual Report

https://edenpark.co.nz/uploads/images/EPT Annual Report and Financial Statements 31Oct15_Final.pdf

In summary, they made a $5.2 mil loss in 2015 and a $7.4 mil loss in 2014.
For Lord Gnome of Howick MBE, they've recently had the land revalued to $22 mil. so my guestimate of $26 mil. wasn't too bad. The book value of their assets given in their report is $222 mil. so the value of the improvements would be a maximum of $196 mil. (around $50 mil. less than the Council valuation of $247 mil.)
 
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Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

Lord Gnome of Howick MBE

Found online the latest EPTB Annual Report

https://edenpark.co.nz/uploads/images/EPT Annual Report and Financial Statements 31Oct15_Final.pdf

In summary, they made a $5.2 mil loss in 2015 and a $7.4 mil loss in 2014.
For Lord Gnome of Howick MBE, they've recently had the land revalued to $22 mil. so my guestimate of $26 mil. wasn't too bad. The book value of their assets given in their report is $222 mil. so the value of the improvements would be a maximum of $196 mil. (around $50 mil. less than the Council valuation of $247 mil.)

The land value in 2028 is likely to be a lot more!
 
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